More on disembodied brains at worship...

(Tim) Under the post dealing with the discipline of the soul through the body, a brother asked these questions:

It sounds like you all are saying that those who raise their hands in worship are somehow more spiritual than those who don't. At the very least the people who raise their hands are portrayed here as somehow more mature than the counterparts who don't. Can you not be a Pharisee if you worship with your hands raised or sitting quietly in the pew? It is the prayer of a righteous man that avails much, not necessarily the prayer of the man with upraised hands, if you get my drift. Personally in my prayers at home I may kneel, raise my hands etc., but at church I tend to be more reserved, not wanting to draw attention to myself.

What I'm saying is not that those who raise their hands, kneel, and stand in corporate worship are more spiritual, but that raising of hands, kneeling, and standing is obedient to Scripture, taught and practiced by the Reformers, gives glory to God, and is a needed discipline for our souls. I suppose such statements could be construed as making the case that those who have repented of being disembodied brains in worship are more spiritual...

But, if so, teaching and calling others to practice almost anything in worship--or really, in all of life--could equally be construed as spiritual pride.

As to whether or not those who follow Scripture and the Reformers by bringing bodily disciplines back into worship think themselves more mature because of it, I can't see how you've gotten that from the discussion? But to speak for myself, every time--and I mean every single time--I lift my hands in worship, I feel quite immature and childish. Then I am glad my hands are lifted because I remember our Lord warned us that our faith must be childlike if we are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

As to Phariseeism, it's all around us. No one holds a corner on it. And in this connection, keep in mind that the improper use of a tool does not invalidate its proper use. The question isn't whether preaching or prayer or standing or kneeling or lifting of hands can be abused in worship, but whether these are proper disciplines for worship. The reformers said so and I believe they are right.

Finally, about reserving bodily disciplines for home and privacy, and not corporate worship lest we call attention to ourselves: I'm convinced that it's time to reverse this equation. We should be allowed to neglect our bodies at home, where we don't have worship leaders, but not at church where the elders lead us and know our weaknesses. In other words, I'm working for the day when the man who doesn't kneel and lift his hands and stand during worship will call attention to himself.

Why?

Because my own pastoral diagnosis is that pride is the besetting sin of the hearts in our doctrinal fellowship. And it is excellent discipline for men with such a condition to stand, kneel, and lift hands in a childlike gesture to our Heavenly Father as we worship Him.

Comments

[Mahoney]

> In other words, I'm working for the day when the man who doesn't kneel and lift his hands and stand during worship will call attention to himself.

I think the fair warning of those against the position of CGS is that we cannot get to the point where people feel pressured to respond a certain way but that their worship with their bodies proceeds from a pure heart not one that seeks to conform to others at church (nor seeks NOT to conform to others.)

We know you, Tim, so we know you want this as well but in these online discussions you can easily be misconstrued.

It sounds like you and many of us find raising hands etc. to be a humbling and thus a sanctifying process, for others it may be natural or even something they tend to do out of show, for them we don't say that they shouldn't do it but we deal with them in their weakness as well. They will look spiritual because their outward appearance is that of an unfettered worshiper when perhaps they are fettered, merely by a different sinful motive.

We do them a disservice as well if we crush the idolatry of some while building up the idolatry of others.

Amazing things are happening, even if they're not happening as quickly as we would like. It will take wisdom to know how much to push in faithful obedience and how much to wait on the Lord.

I personally thank all the leaders (including the music leaders) for their faithfulness.

With love,
Clint

[Mahoney]

> Can you not be a Pharisee if you worship with your hands raised or sitting quietly in the pew?

Excellent question-when I read this blog entry a particular experience of my own came to mind. At my old church I began reading the I Cor. 11 passage about women and head coverings with some conviction. I kept coming back to it no matter how hard I tried to tell myself that since most of the women in my church did not wear head coverings then I must be okay (or at least no one would think I was wrong anyway). I did not want to be convicted to wear a head covering and thus did not ask my husband what he would want for me to do. The reason I did not want to wear a head covering was not that I would be different from the other women (although as a woman I am sure that had something to do with it). The main reason was that there was one other woman in my church who wore a head covering. To me she seemed like a Pharisee (for this and other reasons). I, did not want to seem like a Pharisee, but isn't that exactly what I was being by not obeying a command that God had convicted me of in order to not appear like a Pharisee? There are more ways than one to be like a seeker sensitive or emergent church-one of those ways is to avoid doing what we know is right just because it may look like we are being a Pharisee to others. God knows our hearts and we each need to constantly be searching ours for our motives.
-Ginger

[Stephen Baker]

"There are more ways than one to be like a seeker sensitive or emergent church-one of those ways is to avoid doing what we know is right just because it may look like we are being a Pharisee to others."

This is an excellent point.

I am afraid the term, "Pharisee," has become a name we give to anyone whose obedience is more outward than ours.

We say, "God doesn't care about rules. The Bible is not a list of do's and don'ts. If you actually expect visible, outward obedience to God's commands, you are just being a Pharisee."

God does not just command us to have a pure heart. He also commands us to have clean hands.

[Ken Pierce]

It is a queer argument that was made against raising hands. First, it is a practice commended (if not commanded) in Scripture.

I guess the hyper-spiritual tag could be leveled against tithers vs non, singers vs non, sermon listeners vs non, prayers vs non, ad nauseam.

The point is: Don't be afraid to do it because of what others may think, pro or con.

[Geoff Gleason]

Thanks for the response. There are definitely aspects of the "fear of man" that I apply to myself in your post. I'm still learning and growing and being conformed to Christ, so I take your reproof to heart. I also agree Phariseeism can apply to sins of commission (going along with the crowd just 'cause) or omission (for example, not raising your hands because no one else is...) and that it is all around us. However, my comments were made more as an observation that the focus of the church should be in preparing the people's hearts for sincere worship. The posture of worship, which flows from the sincere heart, is secondary.

Let me expand on that a little. If you are convinced that raising hands in worship is Biblically commanded, for which you have made a good case, do you spend the entire service with your hands raised? Is it ok just to raise them during the first song? During prayer? I'm quite sure that you don't raise your hands the whole service, so how optional is it? I hope you don't misunderstand this as disrespect, because it is not intended as such. I do want to stress that whether we are raising our hands in worship (which many fervent believers do) or whether you worship just be sitting in the pew (also done fervently by many) that the essential point is that our worship is directed to the living God. My concern is that by concentrating on an outward manifestation instead of what should be the inward reality it expresses, hypocrisy is sure to follow.

Quickly backtracking here (due to insecurity, I'm sure), I am not saying we should not teach what Christianity looks like. However, the outward actions naturally flow from the changed inner man. Stephen is 100% correct that we show our faith by our good deeds. My concern is simply one of emphasis.

[Mark Priestap]

"My concern is simply one of emphasis."

Geoff, I think I understand what you mean and I agree with you.

Though I too can see that taking a position of reverence can have a positive effect on our wicked hearts, the primary concern should be that the Word and sacraments are affecting our hearts by hearing the Law and the Gospel that our hearts might overflow in gratitude and faith in Christ.

[Mahoney]

Geoff,

I agree with your post 100%.

One thing though, there is a point where some amount of encouragement (I don't mean "pressure") should be brought to bear.

When I was standing at CGS, before I researched raising hands and decided in favor of it, I felt stiff, restricted, proud and annoyed at everyone else raising hands. This was because I'd taken a position of being better than those I was with and it was detrimental to my spirit and the unity of the church - it had nothing to do with them - it was all my doing from within.

Now, I raise my hands fairly rarely, at first a few seconds every other service, now usually once or twice a service, but most of the time my hands are down and I don't feel the slightest pride or resentment when others have their hands up or not.

There is a weird thing that happens in social groups (and maybe this is my Psych BS coming out here) that the human animal is inherently social and seeks to conform and we get resentful when we are called to do something that makes us feel stupid so our default mode is to want to see everyone doing no more than we ourselves feel comfortable doing.

This leads our churches into a common denominator of spiritual stagnation.

And the other extreme that we don't want is the other side of the human animal, competition. In that we would all be trying to outdo each other in our outward worship.

Yes, as you said, may any worship we give be out of a pure heart rather than jealousy or competition.

-Clint

[Geoff Gleason]

Hi Clint,

Agreed on all counts.

Geoff

[JWDS]

This is why a church should institute liturgical raising of hands. If it is commanded in Scripture, then it should be done, but the assembly is not just an extension of one's private devotions: it is corporate, in which the whole body acts together, or it it's appropriate parts (as in the older cantor traditions). The Lord's Day assembly is not the place for me to do whatever I'm led to do. What if I just "don't feel like singing"? I should still sing praises to God. What if I feel like adding an important point to the message of the sermon? Etc.

Even the example of the heavenly worship shows the saints doing all things in unity, not each person doing whatever they feel like at the moment.

[Geoff Gleason]

Ah yes... but are the heavenly worshipers described as having their hands raised? Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[Michal]

It is true that we can raise our hands for the wrong reasons, but we should not decide "I would do it for the wrong reasons, so I'm not a 'raising-hands' worshiper. If we are tempted to raise our hands for the wrong reasons, we need to not swear off raising hands altogether, but rather, to raise our hands as an act of faith, entrusting our obedience to God, believing that He will change our hearts to raise our hands out of humility and not pride. There may be times that I should refrain from raising my hands, if I examine my motives and see pride or showy and insincere spirituality, but I should never look at my own temptations and exempt myself from raising hands or other outward manifestations of worship. After all, our worship of God SHOULD be ostentatious, right (as long as it draws attention to God's great grace and not ourselves-- but how do we draw the line?) Was anyone looking at David when he was dancing before the ark? Yes...but his dancing was still righteous. My namesake (Michal) never bore children for scorning David that day.

[Michal]

One more thing: I think so much of our positions on this topic come from our church backgrounds. Some people's attitudes are a backlash from being raised in "frozen chosen"-type churches, where no one ever expressed worshipful attitudes. Some people are reacting against experiences in churches that turn every worship service into an emotional experience where you are supposed to listen, then sing, then cry, then re-dedicate your life. I've been to both, and I have fears on both sides. I don't want to be pretend and insincere. So for a while I had an attitude that I would not do anything that didn't come from my heart. But then I realized how sinful my heart is, and this ended up being an excuse for never doing anything I didn't WANT to do (ultimate selfishness) and I remembered that often obedience is the first step of faith, then God conforms our hearts to the faith expressed in our actions.

[Mahoney]

Good point, Michal.

You know, in a discussion with a friend who doesn't agree with me on music, I came across a great quote just now regarding biblical friendship. Also it's a perfect quote to describe what to me is the vision of CGS in attempting to worship boldly. Now this is iron sharpening iron.

Luther's quote to Melanchthon (his friend characterized at times by sharp opposition),

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides."

Ah, ya'all probably already know it but I've never read it - I need to read more.

-Clint