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Friday, 12 June 2009

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As a Charismatic/Vineyard type, I must contribute here :-). In my Anglican days there were long periods in which our worship had in it a lot of kneeling, and the older and more formal approach keeps it. Given what the church was going through at the time, it was exactly the right thing to do. Kneeling is actually helpful, almost a positive spiritual discipline. Some of us even find crossing ourselves, say, at Communion, a helpful thing to do as well - never mind the supposed Catholic resemblances.

As C.S. Lewis put it, "what [the humans] forget is that they are hybrids: what they do with their boides affects their souls" (in *The Screwtape Letters*).

We are attending an OPC church now, and every now and then, someone will lift their hands during a hymn. I can't tell you how refreshing that is!

Yeah, but in the circles I run in, if I do this, now I'll be accused of being a Calvinistic charismatic. :^)

(running for cover)

Seriously, I'm all for this. No sense in letting a God-given means of expression left to just one group.

Raising our hands in prayer and singing is more than an optional, God-given means of expression.

It is our example from godly men (Ezra 9:5, Nehemiah 8:6, Psalm 28:2).

And, it is commanded of godly men (Psalm 134:2 and 1 Timothy 2:8).

Further, I want to be caught waving my branch, not letting it hang limp by my side. I expect to find Paul, Calvin, Owen, Berkhof, and my eight-year-old brother excitedly doing the same thing, with God's approval.

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands...." (Revelation 7:9)

I have to laugh at myself in a convicted, "ok ya got me", kind of way. But my story is different, I grew up in Assemblies of God churches (big Pentecostal denomination) where yes, there is a lot of emotional manipulation in worship. When I switched allegiances and joined CGS a few years back (ask me again about that sometime). I have always been pretty reserved in my worship, and so coming to a church where you just stand and sing songs with *real* content and services end with a clear dismissal, I was home! Thank God that since then I have grown tremendously in my faith, you know- I actually understand grace and sin now, read Calvin, drink scotch, etc. But the point I'm trying to make is that I admit I still have a lot of ingrained stodginess, and I of all people are doubly without excuse for not worshiping more like I should.

An observation from an Anglican who (with his parish) deploys his body, knees, hands, lips, and fingers (not to mention our senses of sight, smell, hearing, touch, and taste) in every worship service ...

There is an amazing power that emerges only with practice when the body is summoned to join with the spirit in a unity of worship. This necessarily entails things such as are mentioned above (kneeling for prayer, bowing deeply at the uuterance of particularly solemn words when they're said or sung (the Gloria Patri, for just one example), lifting hands in prayer, crossing oneself at particularly holy moments or utterances (e.g. whenever we bless the Holy Trinity). That "sign language" marks those moments or words with the work of Christ on the Cross, applied efficasiously to the worshiper, so he acknowledges his entitlement by God's saving grace to say or to do whatever is happening when he crosses himself.

Note also that to cross oneself indiscriminately (such as Pudge Rodrigues does before stepping up to the plate for a pitch), amounts to taking the LORD's name in vain.

We *are* hybrid creatures, the only ones whose nature our Lord took to Himself. Worshipping as Pr. Tim has rightfully ribbed effects a weird sort of amputation of souls.

I remember visiting a Baptist service recently, when we were singing some modern chorus that contained the words "Let us bow befor Him" and "Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker." These phrases are actually borrowed from ancient catholic (note the small "c" please) canticles, and also in the Psalms. But as we sang this, no one bowed, no one kneeled, and I knew that no one accustomed to worship in that setting would ever do so.

What then? Their worship via that chorus trained them to say one thing and at the same time to deny the very thing they were saying. This cannot be good.

Better to stand like a lamp post and ascribe glory to the LORD for making lamposts, than to call upon oneself (and one's fellows) to do what no one will ever intentionally do.

>Better to stand like a lamp post and ascribe glory to the LORD for making lamposts, than to call upon oneself (and one's fellows) to do what no one will ever intentionally do.

Another priceless gem from dear Bill. Chuckling to myself...

It sounds like you all are saying that those who raise their hands in worship are somehow more spiritual than those who don't. At the very least the people who raise their hands are portrayed here as somehow more mature than the counterparts who don't. Can you not be a Pharisee if you worship with your hands raised or sitting quietly in the pew? It is the prayer of a righteous man that avails much, not necessarily the prayer of the man with upraised hands, if you get my drift.

Personally in my prayers at home I may kneel, raise my hands etc., but at church I tend to be more reserved, not wanting to draw attention to myself.

Dear Geoff,

Good questions. I'll respond in a day or two on the main page, as a separate post.

Love,

Great post- I'm an ex-charismatic who just has to chuckle, very quietly, of course. A little irony is great: now, in our Church, during the singing of the Gloria Patri, it is those who DON'T raise their hands who are drawing attention to themselves...

"I see you back there- both of you- not raising your hands..."

When I think of my Charismatic Brethren I think of individual hands raised and a few folks hitting the ground. It does not strike me as work of the Body of Christ gathered together.

Lifting hands and kneeling is a corporate act. It is not some solo performance given by the truly spiritual, rather the whole of the Saints raise their hands and every knee bows.

al sends

> “There is an amazing power that emerges only with practice when the body is summoned to join with the spirit in a unity of worship.”

Bill, what in the world do we need power for? I can’t imagine today’s singers of psalms needing power for anything. We can continue to be witnesses at today’s standards with no special power. We like ‘easy’ church. We’re tax-exempt and we don’t have to have faith.

(Psalms 149:1-9)
Praise the LORD! Sing to the LORD a new song, And His praise in the congregation of the godly ones. Let Israel be glad in his Maker; Let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King. Let them praise His name with dancing; Let them sing praises to Him with timbrel and lyre. For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation. Let the godly ones exult in glory; Let them sing for joy on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, And a two-edged sword in their hand, To execute vengeance on the nations And punishment on the peoples, To bind their kings with chains And their nobles with fetters of iron, To execute on them the judgment written; This is an honor for all His godly ones. Praise the LORD!

Put aside the fact that our worship should contain new songs, gladness, rejoicing, and praise with dancing, drums and guitars. (I understand that the dispensationalist will understand this passage to apply to the physical Israel only and that the RP people will understand this passage to apply to spiritual body movement and instrumentation only)
This passage shows that worship is to be done simultaneous with battle. One without the other cannot be true. A true worshipper is honored to fight for his God and a spiritual warrior is honored and delivered through his act of worship by a God that takes pleasure in him.

I am concerned that I don’t see Christians with anything approximating swords in their hands. I am not concerned that Jody, who does wield a sword, sometimes accompanies worship with a kazoo.

"inflame each other with reverence of God"

This is a very secondary motive for postures in worship. And currently it seems that seeing what others do in worship is more a distraction than an example. We judge each other in worship. Those who move are “calling attention to themselves.” Those who don’t move are the “frozen chosen.”

I try not to judge unrighteously, but I still have thoughts…

Lifting hands has not historically been prescribed in the rubrics of Christian worship because the practice has been that the one who leads and speaks in public prayer lifts his hands. (See the case of Solomon in 1 Kings 8:22, 54 and 2 Chronicles 6:12.) The whole congregation doesn’t have to do this during prayer. 1 Timothy 2:8 does not mean that all the men need to lift their hands when any one of them prays.

As Calvin says in the quote here, hands lifted signify an appeal toward God in heaven. Lifted hands are not simply an expression of praise. They picture an appeal to God, in hope of receiving. They are more suitable for praise with petition, than for praise alone. The posture is to lift the hands toward heaven, palms up (or slanting up) more than forward, in front of our bodies (or at our sides). Solomon is said to have “spread out his hands.” The psalmist “stretched out” his hand (Psalm 77:2).

The historic lifting of hands (known as the “orans” or praying position) is not the posture of an arm or arms lifted, palms forward. That forward position could be a kind of wave, maybe a wave offering without the sacrificed animal portion. In our culture it means, “I surrender.” It could, however, be considered a dance movement while singing. We are not failing if we don’t do it. There is no necessity to counsel everyone to take the orans position, let alone this novel posture, whether during prayer, or while singing.

Examples of lifting hands in prayer, like Psalms 28:2, 63:4, and 141:2 do not teach that all should lift hands during public prayer. Lifting hands is only one bodily posture for prayer among others. I don’t discount the value of the body in worship, but in context these psalm verses emphasize, not the posture, but the direction of prayer. Who are you going to appeal to? The psalmist affirms that his appeal is to the true God, not to idols.

The examples and exhortations that we sing from the Psalms, to lift our hands, or bow down, do not mean that we must do these things right then and there, right while we are singing. Rather, in song we are telling one another to do these things at the appropriate time.

Amen Tim!!

I love Fr. Bill's Lamposts comment. This reminds me of how I worshiped for years in a conservative reformed church. A friend of mine from that church and I were having a discussion about this very subject yesterday and I talked about how I pray every time before worship and pray that if I raise my hands it will not be because I fear men (either feel stupid by raising them or stupid by not raising them). And despite the worship leaders at the front fo the church, I end up worshiping the best when I forget that they are there and stand looking at the lyrics on the screen and forget that everyone is there.

Sure raising hands can become false worship and emotional manipulation but so can refraining from doing it. God sees the heart.

In some ways I am very thankful that the leaders at CGS are patient and don't push us toward the sort of worship that we should be doing which should be much more lively than my fragile ego and my rigid reformed body will easily allow. I'm thankful I've come as far as I have.

Years before ever thinking of coming to CGS, I stood in worship sining the psalms a capella and I felt at times like I was a spiritual Maserati stuck in neutral and I knew I was burning the engine out by not expressing something I needed to express - I would do the only thing that was acceptable at such a church and close my eyes, sing louder and rock back and forth (very slightly).

Yet for the first few weeks at CGS I didn't raise my hands nor authorize my family to do so, until I had researched it via scripture, upon short investigate it was clear that to do so was biblical.

Being afraid of being judged by not raising hands or moving is a poor excuse for not doing what scripture commands. If one finds themselves in such a church where they would be so quickly and unfairly judged, their church has bigger problems than posture in worship.

I lift hands when I feel moved by the Holy Spirit to do it and I don't when I don't, I feel no pressure or judgment from man. Though sometimes I do via the Holy Spirit when I refrain from doing it.

>And despite the worship leaders at the front fo the church, I end up worshiping the best when I forget that they are there and stand looking at the lyrics on the screen and forget that everyone is there.<


Um, this is a real problem. Forgetting that everyone is there is a failure to discern the Lord's body--the same fundamental attitude that the Corinthians were guilty of in their abuse of the Lord's Supper: everyone acted like it was just a private meal at home. Corporate worship is not just an extension of the prayer closet. The Church is called to worship as the church, not as an isolated individual who just happens to be in a group.

Not to argue either way but interesting: my understanding is that the Puritans stood to pray in public worship (& also lifted their hands, but maybe not to sing) & knelt at home. There seems to be a sense that we should do SOMETHING, but that the details might be adiophora (to use a non-Reformed term).

JWDS,

It's not wrong at certain moments to be focused enough on God in worship that you become unaware of what others might be thinking of you.

Issues come in pairs of opposite sin. It would be just as evil that you be so focused on others and self that you cannot perceive God either.

Surely you're not suggesting that we worship each other since this is the body of Christ?

-Clint

I enjoyed this post--so much that I had to write a post about it myself. Thanks!

It seems to me that Calvin here is discussing the act of corporate and private prayer, and not singing. I need a little more substance than this before I can conclude that Calvin liked to raise hands in singing. From the title of this post, that seems to be what is being claimed of him.

Is there no possibility of singing a prayer?
Must we lower our hands when the we pray with rhythm and melody?

I suppose Calvin would have known when to do the right thing.

(Smile)


Max (David), that seems like an argument from silence. Is all singing in church prayer? I think most reasonable people conclude that not all prayer is singing and not all singing done in a church context is prayer. Which leads me back around to my point, just because Calvin had some helpful and convicting things to say about our use of our bodies in private and corporate prayer, it does not necessarily follow that he intended for the same to take place in our worship through singing. I'd need more evidence before I could make that conclusion.

G F,

Most reasonable people will conclude that not all singing is not prayer and not all singing done in a church context is not prayer. Which leads me back around to my point, just because Calvin had some helpful and convicting things to say about our use of our bodies in private and corporate prayer, it does not necessarily follow that he didn't intend for the same to take place in our prayers offered in worship through singing.

Also, while I love and appreciate God's gifts to us through John Calvin, I don't need his imprimatur on this one. (However, I clearly see it here.)

Hey, my pastor raised his hands Sunday, as he always does. We're good to go... :)

Again, it seems like an argument is being built upon Calvin's silence.

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