George Tiller is done slaughtering babies for profit.

(Tim, w/thanks to David T.) While attending worship at Reformation Lutheran Church this morning, child-slaughterer George Tiller seems to have been assassinated. Without a doubt the most bloodthirsty and cruel of our nation's baby-murderers, Tiller's name has been infamous among men committed to stopping the bloodshed. He's one of the few willing to take money to murder babies so late in the pregnancy that they would be viable outside the womb.

Operation Rescue publicity hound, Randall Terry, expresses regret at Tiller's assassination. We express regret for the years he was allowed to slaughter babies with the civil authority doing absolutely nothing to stop him. One wonders what Martin Luther, John Calvin, or Dietrich Bonhoeffer would say at the news that he was attending church this morning when he was killed?

May Almighty God keep another man from picking up his traffic in murder.

Comments

[Ken Pierce]

Does anyone else find it troubling that he was a worshipping member of a Lutheran church? (ELCA, granted).

[Sue McKeown]

I find it very inconsistent, but ELCA churches are as varied as individuals. Within about 5 miles, there is a great ELCA church with emphasis on having a personal relationship with Jesus, God's word is preached and the sacraments rightly administered -- then there's the other ELCA church, so whacked out I wouldn't take a stray dog there.

WRT to Dr. Tiller's "profession" it's deplorable, of course. IMHO, killing him is not the way to get him out of business. If they catch the person who shot him, I hope he or she is punished as much as the law allows.

[Fr. Bill]

The story linked above tells us that President Obama is "shocked and outraged" by this murder. For once, I find myself strangely sympathetic with our President's capacity to feel outrage at some murders and no outrage at others.

The AP story includes this lovely paragraph:

"The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is 'an unspeakable tragedy,' his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. 'This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace.' "

[Kamilla]

Sue,

I was sorta hoping the guy gets a really good lawyer.

Fr. Bill, I found the irony in this bit too painful for words:

"However profound our differences as Americans over difficult issues such as abortion, they cannot be resolved by heinous acts of violence," the president said in a statement issued by the White House."

And this about Tiller:

""It's a terrible loss. I'm just really sad about the whole thing," said a former employee of the clinic who asked not to be identified. "He was a great guy. I understand people were against a lot of what he did, but for those who he helped, they'll never forget the kind of person he was."

God help me, but I am not sorry the man is dead.

Kamilla

[Whitney]

Christians SHOULD regret his murder, just as they regret the murder he committed. You cannot uphold the life of the (sinful) baby without upholding the life of the (sinful) abortionist.

To do so is revenge and hatred. Sorry.

[Eric Rasmusen]

I wonder if Secretary of HHS Sibelius and President Obama will have the guts to go to his funeral. I hope this becomes a divisive issue. They would, of course, like to duck it quietly.

Dr. Tiller is the only abortionist whose name I knew, so this is a big deal. It's hard to find doctors who will do late-term abortions, but I expect there is a lot of profit in it for that very reason.

[Eric Rasmusen]

p.s.-- if anybody knows of a pro-abortion blog, it would be very useful if you'd post a comment there asking if Sibelius and Obama will attend the funeral. We'd like them to be forced to say yes or no, and so, I expect, would the politically naive pro-abortion people.

[Craig French]

I, for one, will shed no tears on my pillow tonight at the thought of Tiller's death...Lord protect me from relishing in it.

[Clint Mahoney]

Whitney,

I'm sorry he's dead, not for him but for Christ's name. I can't see this helping the Pro-Life cause but I trust God in all his judgments, even this one.

If God's prophesy through Nathan was fit for David, "Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me" then it's surely applicable to Tiller.

[David Gray]

>Christians SHOULD regret his murder, just as they regret the murder he committed. You cannot uphold the life of the (sinful) baby without upholding the life of the (sinful) abortionist.

We should regret his murder, not his death and passing to judgement. In a civilized society he would have been executed but the means of his death here was illegitimate.

[Kamilla]

Eric,

Warren Hern, just up the road from me in Boulder, also specializes in late term abortions.

Kamilla

[Mick Buschbacher]

"when the wicked perish, there is joyful shouting."
-Proverbs 11:10

...I for one will be joyful.

[Doug Papenmeier]

I've read/heard converted abortionists say that church-going is common among such murderers. (One cannot, of course, be too careful of WHICH church one attends. (with apologies to CS Lewis)) They even give significant tithes to the church in a sort of macabre balance of good and evil. How subtle the Serpent's lies!

I will be glad to see his practice ended, and in prayer that the inevitable fallout doesn't harm the pro-life cause.

[Deb]

We found out just at the end of our service that George Tiller had been shot and killed. The congregation's response was grief and prayer. During our services we had prayed for years for cessation of his business, for a change of heart, for God to work. Our associate pastor had arranged for the youth to spend time in prayer outside the clinic before. I went with all my children. We prayed as we cried, thinking of the lives lost there every day the clinic is open.

Dr. Tiller had 2 other abortionists coming in to work at his clinic at different times during the month regularly. His death may not entirely stop deaths at the abortion clinic.

As we were going home from church I thought of the phrase, "those who live by the sword, die by the sword." He lived by violence every day he worked at his clinic. He went to church, a place of peace as the Tiller family statement to the media stated, and was himself the subject of violence.

[Kevin Jackson]

I agree with Clint on this. My first thought was that this will add fuel to the fire in the war against those who oppose infanticide.

I also regret that Dr. Tiller died without knowing Christ as his savior and will now know Him only as His judge. I rejoice for the lives that may be saved, but I weep for the soul that was lost.

[David Gray]

Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

[Michael McMillan]

The cold-blooded hypocrisy of the abortionists is hard to fathom.

"This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

Isn't the womb a place of peace? Why aren't their hearts wrenched by all those babies who suffered even more violent deaths in the most unlikely and most peaceful place possible?

I wouldn't call a chuch that knowingly harbors such an unrepentant killer a "place of peace."

Also from the article:

__But Randall Terry, a veteran anti-abortion activist who founded Operation Rescue and whose protests have often targeted Tiller, called the slain doctor "a mass murderer," adding: "He was an evil man — his hands were covered with blood."__

It looks like Randall Terry has committed a hate crime, and could be considered an accomplice to Tiller's murder under new laws. I think this is where things are headed to silence any serious opposition.

-Michael

[Kamilla]

"Isn't the womb a place of peace?"

Michael,

That is simple and brilliant! I'm so proud to have you as a friend.

Kamilla

[Leslie Taylor]

First reactions, not well thought-out perhaps, just thinking outloud:

~I resonate with David Gray above, that we are relieved that he died, because his days of taking the lives of the helpless are over. But this is different than rejoicing in the way that he died; that we was lawlessly murdered.

~Deb reminded us that those who live by the sword, die by the sword. I see this as a statement of reality. Not that Christians should kill murderers apart from the means of the law and our justice system, but that it simply will happen. And it has.

~Part of me is disappointed that he did not live to see his medical lisence removed and some sort of small (although infinitely incomplete) justice served in this life as an example to others.

[John]

"Down in Wichita, Kansas, there is a physician by the name of George Tiller. On his website he boasts that he has already performed 60,000 abortions, mostly late-term, and week after week he is killing 100 more unborn babies.

Dr. Tiller does not think of these fetuses as clusters of cancerous cells. He knows they are human because he baptizes some of them before he incinerates them in his own crematorium. You don’t baptize non-humans. Dr. Tiller knows that. He is a practicing Lutheran. His former congregation, Holy Cross of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, excommunicated him as an unrepentant sinner. But the Lutheran Church of the Reformation, which belongs to the ELCA, communes him."
Uwe Siemon-Netto ,10/11/2008
http://concordia.typepad.com/vocation/2008/10/remembering-col.html

John Ohlmann (ht: http://www.geneveith.com/)

[Jamie Soles]

So may all Your enemies perish!

His murderer should have given himself up then and there and declared why he did what he did, and given glory to God.

[Rebecca Nugent]

I'm glad I'm not the only one...I am not sorry that this horrible murderer was shot. He's comparable to Hitler, and if you'd ask any honest pagan (let alone a Christian) whether it's fine to wish Hitler dead, they would certainly nod in approval.

The main reason people are saying otherwise IMHOP (ha! I've been waiting to use that acronym!), is that it's the cool and reasonable thing to say. For those of us who are pro-life and pro-self defense, we would have absolutely no problem justifying taking action to defend ourselves or our loved ones should their lives be in jeopardy. We shouldn't feign shocked offense when a murderer of full term, partially born babies is taken out.

[JHL]

There very likely will be those in Obama's administration who do begin to pressure that "hate speech" be the characterization of those who condemn abortion. There will be those who try to re-impose the anti-racketeering laws against pro-life protests.

The Enemy will never rest, but keep coming back from a different angle. Whatever arguments were dismissed by prior Supreme Court cases will be brought up again.

We need to train a new generation to continue the fight after us.

Do our children learn the Gospel from our lips every day in different ways? Do our children learn to consult God's Word in their decisions?
Do our children learn to apply the Bible to every area of their lives and submit every area of their lives to God?

Do they see this not simply talked about, but modeled in their parents daily lives.... like Paul... "Whatever you have heard from me, or SEEN in me... put into practice..."

[Benjamin P. Glaser]

Psalm 7:11-17 comes to mind:

God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. If he does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready. He also prepares for Himself instruments of death; He makes His arrows into fiery shafts. Behold, the wicked brings forth iniquity; Yes, he conceives trouble and brings forth falsehood. He made a pit and dug it out, And has fallen into the ditch which he made. His trouble shall return upon his own head, And his violent dealing shall come down on his own crown. I will praise the LORD according to His righteousness, And will sing praise to the name of the LORD Most High.

[John]

Please be careful as we presume to judge in God's place. Let us pray that his last moments were akin to the thief on the cross, and that despite all that he has done in his life, that he too may receive forgiveness. Our Lord would not have sanctioned his violent death. We follow Christ, not Bonhoeffer.

[Michael McMillan]

> "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."

While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. --1 Thessalonians 5:3

[David Gray]

>Our Lord would not have sanctioned his violent death.

Incorrect. Christians are not ordained to take human life, as autonomous individuals. However a just society would have seen to his death a long time ago using God ordained means.

[Michael McMillan]

Here is Reformation Lutheran Church's media statement:

http://www.reformation-lutheran.org/

[Michael McMillan]

Someone was quoted as saying: "We had no idea that someone would come into our church and do such a bad thing like that — inside of a church."

Do they have any idea perfectly normal babies are daily massacred inside a "health clinic"? Which is more of a "bad" thing?

As far as Randall Terry and hate crimes go, it appears the suspect was involved on Operation Rescue's discussion group. No doubt these sorts of connections to "sympathetic" groups will be exploited to the max.

__A man with the same name as the suspect has a criminal record and a background of anti-abortion postings on sympathetic Web sites.__

Kamilla, here's Hern on Tiller's demise:

__One of the few remaining late-term abortion clinics is in Boulder, Colo., where Dr. Warren Hern denounced Tiller's killing as the "inevitable and predictable consequence of decades of anti-abortion" rhetoric and violence.

__"Dr. Tiller's assassination is not the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer," Hern said Sunday. "This was a political assassination in a historic pattern of anti-abortion political violence. It was terrorism."__

Unfortunately, abortion isn't the lone and inexplicable action of one deranged killer, either.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090601/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting

--Michael

[John]

> However a just society would have seen to his death a long time ago using God ordained means.

Even if I agreed, that is beside the point. He was murdered by an autonomous individual, not a "just society". A "just society" has yet to exist.

To clarify, the violent death that DID happen ... our Lord would not have sanctioned.

[David Gray]

>To clarify, the violent death that DID happen ... our Lord would not have sanctioned.

That is better stated.

[Whitney]

"We follow Christ, not Bonhoeffer."

Thank you!

For a more theologically (and less hysterical) based discussion, please see here:
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2009/05/abortion-war-will-not-be-won-by-bullets.html

http://theologica.blogspot.com/2009/06/mohler-wicked-deed-in-wichita-test-for.html

[Kevin Simpson]

So Tiller has been parading his sins at a place of worship? And he found peace at this place of worship? I wonder how Phinehas would have handled it?

Numbers 25:
6 Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them—through the Israelite and into the woman's body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.

10 The LORD said to Moses, 11 "Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, has turned my anger away from the Israelites; for he was as zealous as I am for my honor among them, so that in my zeal I did not put an end to them. 12 Therefore tell him I am making my covenant of peace with him. 13 He and his descendants will have a covenant of a lasting priesthood, because he was zealous for the honor of his God and made atonement for the Israelites."

[David Gray]

>For a more theologically (and less hysterical) based discussion, please see here:

The first link was fluff and Mohler was basically right in the second but was in no way in conflict with the flow of discussion here.

[Bret Lee McAtee]

Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.
Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. She's gone where the goblins go,
Below - below - below. Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked Witch is dead!

[Bike Bubba]

Do we have the direct leading that Ehud and Phinehas had? I think we ought to be very careful, let we emulate Peter and cut an ear to our Lord's shame.

Keep in mind as well that a conviction of Tiller--he was under indictment when he died--could have had a wonderful effect in this fight. Now all that is gone.

[Clint Mahoney]

Scott Tibbs immediately got on the HT blog attached to the Tiller article. Thanks Scott for always being there to defend the Pro-Life position.

Of course, all of them are comparing Pro-Lifers to Al-Queida - calling us every type of terrorist, telling Scott that he can't call abortion a holocost and genocide and not be complicit in the murder of Tiller.

By saying simply, "This is the hardest thing to understand about how God works, why he allows Tiller to murder 60,000 children" within a few minutes I was called a complicit in the murder of Tiller by several people.

This is the beginning of the persecution that the church will face in coming years - and I personally welcome it because God will sanctify his people through it.

This sort of thing really is a mess and all of us will need great wisdom in how we witness to the world regarding Tiller's murder.

Let's all pray that the Lord gives us great wisdom.

[Clint Mahoney]

All of this is exactly why men have such a hard time being heavily involved in Pro-Life work, we want to act and act is what the murderer of Tiller did.

Please pray for the men in Pro-Life work.

[Marie]

I ended up here by chance and I have to say I'm horrified by the brand of "Christianity" I found. As an evangelical Christian, yes, I believe abortion is murder and reprehensible in God's eyes. But murder is equally wrong, and to celebrate it is to spit in the face of God. I grieve for a life stolen, however much I disagree with what he did. And I fear that the pro-life movement, and its evangelical wing in specific, has lost much ground today, perhaps too much to recover. What we were increasingly displaying, through peaceful tactics, as a logical, scientific, consistent ethic of life is now considered laughable, even to the point of being called "evangelical terrorism."

One commenter wrote, "the cold-blooded hypocrisy of the abortionists is hard to fathom." The same could be said of many of the comments seen here. How can we call ourselves pro-life when we celebrate the death of a human being at the hands of another? God is the giver and taker of life, not man.

[David Gray]

>How can we call ourselves pro-life when we celebrate the death of a human being at the hands of another?

I take it you don't consider the Psalms to be inspired...

[John]

The Psalms are of course inspired, but their meaning is not something we gain from simple reading, but from the Lord revealing its meaning to us. Christ is the key that unlocks the Old Testament.

For example:

O daughter Babylon, you devastator!
Happy shall they be who pay you back
what you have done to us!
Happy shall they be who take your little ones
and dash them against the rock!

Without Christ as a lens to look through, we may be tempted to understand this passage as God condoning the massacre of children. Thank God the Church does not understand the Psalm in this way.

And here is how the lens of Christ brings us to the truth of the Psalm:

From Cassiodorus, "Explanation of the Psalms Vol. 3", 540-550AD:

Our flesh is aptly called the daughter of Babylon, for it is known to heap confusion of sins upon us. The appropriate epithet is bestowed upon her; she is called wretched.... But having mentioned the daughter of Babylon, they maintain that a most just repayment is to be rendered to her, so that just as unbridled living rouses us to vices, so when the flesh is subdued by fasting and afflictions, we can make it subject to the virtues.... The person who takes hold of his little ones, meaning his harmful vices, is blessed, because he has already made progress towards controlling them; for when we hold something we take it in our power, and it ceases to be free since it has begun to be enslaved by us. He added: And shall dash them against the rock, so that he does not linger in holding them, in case their enticing pleasure creeps over him. He shall dash them against the rock means against none other than the Lord Saviour, of whom it was written: The rock was Christ, thus the impulses which fired us with the foulest emotions are at once shattered and dispersed. We do well to analyse their phrase: Thy little ones, meaning sins of the flesh born of a wretched mother. While small they are easily grasped and effectively dashed against the heavenly Rock; but once they begin to mature and reach a most vigorous manhood, a sterner struggle is commenced with them, and they are not easily overcome by our weakness."

The Psalms are indeed inspired, but they do not teach us to commit violence against others or to celebrate a murder.

[David Gray]

>Without Christ as a lens to look through, we may be tempted to understand this passage as God condoning the massacre of children.

Was Israel's conquest of Canaan merely metaphor?

[John]

Well, my understanding of a metaphor is something that did not necessarily happen. So no, the conquest was not a metaphor.

But it wasn't simply history, either - its Scripture, the living Word.
Christ changes not history, but meaning.

Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

[David Gray]

Are you Marcionite in your understanding of the conquest?

[Kamilla]

"I think it's the inevitable consequence of more than 35 years of constant anti-abortion terrorism, harassment and violence...They want the doctors dead, and they invite people to assassinate us. No wonder that this happens. I am next on the list. -- Dr. Warren Hern, self-described as "now, the only doctor in the world who performs very-late-term abortions," and a close friend of Dr. Tiller"

I found the above quote on another blog. It almost sounds as if Hern is daring the extremists to come after him next.

One more good reason to stay away from Boulder. Yikes!

Kamilla

[John]

Forgive me David, I didn't even know what that was, so I looked it up.
If my understanding is correct .. then no, I'm not a Marcionite, that is clearly a heresy.

[Scott Tibbs]

The man who murdered Tiller should be executed, if convicted by a jury of his peers after a fair trial. However, the evil of terrorism does not even come close to the evil of abortion. It is like comparing Jeffrey Dahmer (who was certainly evil) to Joseph Stalin.

[Marie]

Re: "I take it you don't consider the Psalms to be inspired..."

I just want to be clear here...are you actually arguing that murder is biblical? I have never encountered this argument, so I'm a bit taken aback.

And yes, I believe the Psalms, like all off the Bible, are inspired. However, I also believe that Christ came to reinterpret the Old Testament for people who read only the letter of the law and missed the spirit. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...how can you reconcile this with your idea that what the murderer of George Tiller did was okay?

[Rebecca Nugent]

It is very difficult for me to want to see the man who killed Tiller be executed for what he did. Again, if Hitler were alive today, would be be demanding the execution of someone (hypothetically) who would assasinate him? Are we so incredibly desensitized to the reality that there is no difference between killing the fully born and the partially born?

[Archie]

Let's all take a step back here for a minute. There is a difference in rejoicing in the death of a man and rejoicing that the evil that he accomplished and championed is now at its end. I can't speak for everyone here, but I think that we can agree on several things here:

1) There should be rejoicing in the hearts of those who follow Christ that the man who murdered so many children in such a heinous way can now no longer take these lives.

2) This rejoicing is NOT a rejoicing in the death of George Tiller the man, but rather a rejoicing that the evil that George Tiller actively worked towards is now at its end from this particular avenue.

3) We can look at Mr. Tiller and notice with fear and trembling that our God does not allow evil to go unpunished and we can take warning from this death that we too shall face death and then the judgment for our own sin and that we should repent and ask God to soften our hearts.

I'm sure that there is much more, but it is late and my wife is bugging me to go to bed. Is there someone else that can carry this on?

[Andrew Henry]

Marie,
The point in bringing up the Psalms is simply this: Should Christians not glorify God when a man who has dedicated his life to bloodshed is prevented from ever again shedding the blood of a child? King David clearly rejoices in God destroying the enemies of Israel. We shouldn't be gleeful and self-congratulatory about it, because, like all men, Tiller was still made in the image of God, but it is foolishness to say that we should not celebrate the lives that are saved by this man being gone.

Also, I agree with Scott Tibbs, that the murderer should be executed according to the laws of our country.

[Eric Rasmusen]

It would be interesting to know if the murderer agrees that he should be executed. I wouldn't be surprised if he does agree (contrary to the pro-abortion people, who are probably opposed to the death penalty), but took that into account when he acted.

Of course, whether he is willing to die for his act is not directly relevant to whether it was moral.

I just read a good article by Prof. Paulsen of St. THomas law school in Minnesota on a similar moral quandary. He was in the Justice Dept. while Reagan was thinking about nominating Souter, and at the time he could have leaked info about Souter that could have prevented the nomination by inciting the anti-abortion forces against him and very possibly gotten Roe v. Wade would have been reversed. That would have been contrary to his duty as a civil servant, so he didn't. He still wondered about that in 1998 when he wrote the article.

[David Gray]

>I just want to be clear here...are you actually arguing that murder is biblical?

No, you need to read what I actually wrote.0

>And yes, I believe the Psalms, like all off the Bible, are inspired.

Then you must not believe that rejoicing in the death of the wicked is inherently sinful.

[Valerie (Kyriosity)]

I think Archie is saying that we can see this on two levels: As with *any* circumstance, we see not only the immediate cause, but the Divine Hand ordaining it. We deplore the immediate cause -- the vigilantist execution of Dr. Tiller was a wicked, sinful, unChristian, unbiblical, criminal act that ought to be punished by the state. But we can rejoice that God has meted out justice -- not with a giddy, self-congratulatory, exultant, triumphalistic attitude, but with a trembling-on-our-faces-before-the-consuming-fire-of-God-Almighty attitude. We should take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but we should take pleasure in the glory of our God. And if we rejoice in seeing God's justice here, we must also be willing to rejoice if Tiller's murderer is executed by the state.

But we should only dare to do any rejoicing, any taking of pleasure in this circumstance, if we are also in the habit of sincerely rejoicing in hard providences that happen to *us*. If I'm not sanctified enough to sincerely rejoice in my own losses and afflictions, I've got no business pretending that my rejoicing in others' losses and afflictions is sanctified. I may call it that, but chances are slim that it's anything other than thinly veiled vengefulness.

[David Gray]

What does scripture say?

Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

[Ross]

"Be careful when you fight a dragon that you do not a dragon become" (Niezsche, I think)

[Archie]

Valerie,

Exactly.

We rejoice that there is a God and that He is just. And we tremble that there is a God and that He is just.

[David Gray]

>Exactly.

Really?

Valerie: We should take no pleasure in the death of the wicked

God: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked

A lot of what Valerie says is very good, even in the above and if she has a problem with those verses she's on common ground with C.S. Lewis. However when our idea of Christianity can't be squared with scripture we need to reconsider.

[Archie]

Dear Mr. Gray,

Please hear clearly what I am saying: I am not saying that we should not have joy in the death of evil men. We clearly should Biblically. However, that joy should be primarily a joy in the character of our Lord who judges evil; not in the condemnation of a soul to hell. We worship our holy and just God and pray that He will wipe out the evil from among us. At the same time we should feel both sorrow for the lost and a fear of God over our own sin.

We should hate evil and fight against it. However, let us be careful that our grasp of theology does not drive out the love that we must have for the lost; even those as lost as Mr. Tiller.

[Marie]

Can someone point me to an example in the New Testament of Jesus rejoicing in the death of the wicked? Maybe I'm missing something, but I only seem to find him calling sinners to himself, spending time with them, and loving them. The examples in the OT are inherently different, because they come from a time when God only had a relationship with the Israelites; now we are ALL God's people.

[Valerie (Kyriosity)]

"'But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?' says the Lord GOD, 'and not that he should turn from his ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:21-23)

David, I by no means wish to deny the Scripture you have quoted, but we must keep it in context with the rest of Scripture. If Yahweh also says that He does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, then we must not read the Psalm you quote and assume that we may take unqualified pleasure in the death of the wicked. Archie and I have qualified how we believe the righteous may righteously go about rejoicing in God's vengeance.

[Valerie (Kyriosity)]

Marie, Jesus prayed the Psalms. Including the one David quoted. Jesus pronounced woes upon Jerusalem of His day (Matthew 23). In Revelation 5 we see weeping when no one is found worthy to open the scroll, and rejoicing when the Lamb is found worthy to open it. In Revelation 6 we see that the scroll contains death and judgment upon God's unrepentant enemies, meted out by the Lamb Himself. So all heaven rejoices then in the death of the wicked.

Tear out the pages between your Old and New Testaments. The Bible is one book, written by one Spirit. He has given us all of it by which to know Him, and we must embrace all of it if we are to properly love and obey Him. And in all of it we find Him calling sinners to Himself and condemning those who will not come. In all of it we see Him forbearing in His judgment, but not forever. With Christ's coming we see more clearly than ever how He does this and how we are to participate with Him. We can pray the Psalms hoping first and foremost that God will destroy His enemies *as enemies* by converting them. But He is not unjust if He chooses to destroy unrepentant murderers and persecutors by their death and damnation, and we should rejoice in His justice as we do in all His perfect character.

[Marie]

Valerie, after reading through your comments I think we are on the same page, though perhaps coming at it from different perspectives. I apologize, I wasn't as clear as I could have been with my previous question. I certainly understand the nature of the final judgment, and that is exactly my point--we are to leave it up to God. Christ's command to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" seems to directly address the issue. This blog addresses the issue pretty well: http://online.worldmag.com/2009/06/01/on-the-death-of-the-wicked/. While the fact that this murder happened is enough to demonstrate that it is part of God's will, that does not mean we are to celebrate it; by this argument we should celebrate abortions that have happened in the past, because they happened and thus are part of God's will!

I think Robert George said it well at National Review Online: ""Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." For the sake of justice and right, the perpetrator of this evil deed must be prosecuted, convicted, and punished. By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion. Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious. We do not teach the wrongness of taking human life by wrongfully taking a human life. Let our "weapons" in the fight to defend the lives of abortion's tiny victims, be chaste weapons of the spirit."

And I do believe that the Bible is one unified book designed to reveal to us the nature and character of God in his fullness, but it does not follow that we read both the OT and the NT in the same way. The Old Covenant is of a completely different nature than the New Covenant ushered in by Christ; it is the fulfillment of the hope to which the Old Covenant pointed. If we read the OT perfectly literally, without the lens of Christ, then we are no better than the Pharisees.

[Clint Mahoney]

Marie,

You're writing on a blog where we call almost the entire OT and NT "The Covenant of Grace" and so we do not believe there is a different way of interpreting the OT and NT.

Jesus also spoke judgment against individuals. When you asked if Jesus condemned people I just did a quick search over all the places he interacted with the Pharisees. The parable of the landowner is a good example when the Pharisees said to themselves:

"When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:45)

The Pharisees were told that the Kingdom of God would be taken from them, in other words they would be condemned to hell.

Also Matthew 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

There are tons of verses like this in the NT. Jesus did not speak the ubiquitous quote non-Christians claim Christians always make "You're gonna burn in Hell!" but Jesus did speak the condemnation of specific people. Of course, we are not Christ but we do not question God's working, just as Christ didn't.

Archie described it perfectly. We do not rejoice in this man's death but in God's sovereignty and justice. When I prayed with my children Sunday about Tiller's death we prayed that Tiller's family would become Christians and we prayed that it was unfortunate Tiller couldn't come to Christ in his life but now we don't question God in his judgment of Tiller either.

When you begin to regret God's judgment by overly (but rightly) feeling regret over a man's condemned soul you run a very dangerous risk of questioning God in a way that can condemn your own soul as well.

We can regret the evil that brought about a man's death and still rejoice that he was struck down. Years ago, Tiller was shot in both arms, probably as an attempt to stop him from performing abortions while sparing his life, Tiller chose to go right back do performing full-term abortions. For all we know this was God sending a warning to Tiller, a man who attended church, and Tiller ignored it, and thus sealing his fate before a righteous God.

[Leslie Taylor]

As pro-life comments have ranged from soundly condemning the murder, to rejoicing and calling the murderer a hero, there are a few points that we can all agree on:

First: that Tiller was fully deserving of death. This point has nothing to do with whether or not one agrees with taking the law into one's own hands. It is simply a statement of justice. A just society would have soundly executed Dr. Tiller long before the river of blood flowing from his hands reached 60,000 souls. Genesis 9:6 "If any man sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed" is a principle for all societies for all times. It is not part of the mosaic law that Christ fulfilled, such as do not eat shellfish, and of which the scripture clearly speaks of no longer being active (Peter is told in a vision to kill and eat the unclean animals.) This command was given long before Moses and is grounded in the fact that man is created in the image of God. When man is killed, the image of God is assaulted and that man has forfeit his life.

Second, is Archie's point that we are thankful that he will no longer terrorize the earth, regardless of our view of the person who felt obligated to act in place of an unjust state. Imagine yourself hiding Jews in your basement and attic and imagine if one of the plots to assasinate Hitler had been successful. Whether or not you supported the plot and thought it just and scriptural, there would have been great rejoicing in your house nonetheless. Dancing in the streets, maybe even.

Third, we can all agree that this type of moral dilemma is one that we should all work to eliminate. In a civilized society, no man should ever have to make the choice between going to jail for the rest of his life or perhaps the death penalty and allowing the little ones to be ripped from their mother's womb yesterday and today.

There were appointments with death this week that will not take place. Perhaps some of those women will not be able to get another appointment. Perhaps someday one of us will meet a child that was supposed to die yesterday, but didn't. Many of the babies Tiller killed were children with Down's Syndrome or some other defect that was not detected until late into the pregnancy. There is a national registry that President Bush created full of families waiting to adopt these babies; maybe some family will get its wish soon, and there are no shortages of families willing to take babies BTW.

There was another time in history where those with defects were rounded up and cremated in ovens just like the ones Tiller used to cremate his mutilated children; although Tiller baptized many of his first, so I guess that makes him a little better?

The apologetically never-brief Leslie.

[Michael McMillan]

> Every human life is precious. George Tiller's life was precious.

Marie, if this is some sort of absolute, then even the State shouldn't execute a person such as George Tiller. What is your view? It would be hard to find a more prolfic murderer in the history of the United States.

The New Testament *does* say that the State doesn't bear the sword in vain, even if Jesus Himself never did.

I hear a lot of support for Tiller being allowed to live, no matter what. Could you tell us if Tiller's murderer's life is also just as precious? Christians want his blood, now.

> By word and deed, let us teach that violence against abortionists is not the answer to the violence of abortion.

We may not be called to violence, but God is not so limited, and has countless means at His disposal, including human agents, as the Bible makes abundantly clear.

This whole thing gets into murky waters. We certainly can't walk up and kill George Tiller, who has had decades of opportunities to repent from his crimes against humanity, while even being very involved in a "Christian" church. BUT we Christians are are allowed to mindlessly and randomly kill on sight if the government tells us to do so -- say, for example, blowing away 18-year old draftees forced to serve in an enemy army, who have never heard the Gospel.

Something's out of whack with our ethics, possibly?

As far as George Tiller's life being precious, God says [in the New testament] that some people are vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and it is good to fear Him.

[I am at all not supporting what happened, I am trying to balance out some of the comments. God is not restricted by our laws. We can't know His will, but we can't restrict Him, either.]

"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared beforehand for destruction? And he did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory..." --Romans 9:22-23

One thing we can say for sure is that God was very long-suffering and patient regarding George Tiller.

--Michael

[Marie]

No, I don't believe in the death penalty under any circumstances, for that very reason. I firmly believe that life is God's to give and take away. But I thank you for letting me know the particular interpretation stance of the site, of which I was unaware. I will respectfully back off, as there is no point in furthering an argument based on a completely different understanding of Scripture.

[Andy Halsey]

"If, however, a man acts presumptuously toward his neighbor, so as to kill him craftily, you are to take him even from My altar, that he may die.(Exodus 21:14, NASB)

The Lord did His will. We don't live in a theocracy and none of us has a standing duty to execute murderers without trial. We should shudder at the thought of doing what Roeder did.

But God obeyed His own command here and I think that is a sweetly terrifying thought. God is to be feared even now, even in a country that offers legal protection from those who do violence against the least of these. And I will boast in a God Who will make His will known. And there is a double vindication of God's truth here! He spoke in a church that denied His written word. Just because you flee to a liberal church does not mean God will not preach Truth to you.

"It is what the LORD spoke, saying, 'By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy, And before all the people I will be honored.'" So Aaron, therefore, kept silent. (Leviticus 10:3, NASB)

Is not this a God to be feared? Is not this our God who will not be mocked?

[Valerie (Kyriosity)]

Marie, I used to be anti-death penalty, too. Here's one Scripture that convinced me otherwise:

"Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man" (Genesis 9:6).

It is precisely because human life is precious that God requires the execution of murderers. They have destroyed His very image, and He demands that they be destroyed in turn. Belief in the death penalty for murderers is the only biblically consistent pro-life position.

God gave man dominion over the earth, including dominion over other men through God-ordained civil governments. One of the *express* purposes of God-ordained governments is to execute evildoers: "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil" (Romans 13:3-4). And that's in the New Testament -- clearly the coming of Christ did not abrogate the need for capital punishment.

Marie, this isn't just a different understanding of Scripture, it is Scripture itself -- God's Word, straight up. I would encourage you to prayerfully consider whether your "different understanding" isn't just plain misunderstanding, or even rebellion against God's law cleverly disguised as niceness. That's what it was for me, and I had to repent of that.

Blessings.

[Kamilla]

Marie,

I think Valerie has it right - and this is why Christians can favor the death penalty. And probably should do so in faithfulness to Scripture. Whoever takes a life has forfeit his own life, as the Genesis passage shows.

Yes, you are right -- life is God's to give and take. However, as his vice-regents we humans are given conditions under which to enforce a penalty of death, whether this be in war or in a judicial process for a criminal act.

Kamilla

[David Gray]

>As pro-life comments have ranged from soundly condemning the murder, to rejoicing and calling the murderer a hero

Who called the murderer a hero?

[David Gray]

>No, I don't believe in the death penalty under any circumstances

The church has never held that and it is essentially an anti-scriptural position.

[Leslie Taylor]

David Gray: "Who called the murderer a hero?"

Sorry for the misunderstanding; I meant in the larger pro-life community some are calling him a hero, not necessarily anyone on this blog. A commenter on Justin Taylor's blog did in fact call him a hero and a few others there implied it.

[Michael McMillan]

> It would be interesting to know if the murderer agrees that he should be executed.

Undoubtedly he had to have counted the cost, and comprehends what is due him for his actions. It will be very interesting seeing what defense he uses. Will he go the same old, irresponsible routes ['Gee, I didn't realize the thing was loaded'], or will he say he was saving helpless, innocent victims from slaughter? Contrary to Dr. Mohler, I think having this issue back out in the daylight instead of swept under the national rug can help the pro-life cause, depending upon how it is handled in court. It has to be made abundantly clear what Tiller was up to, even if it was "legal." I hope the opportunity isn't wasted. The crime didn't help the cause, but the trial certainly could.

Most murderers in this country are not executed. They commit this crime to selfishly serve themselves, using and destroying other people to satisfy their own lusts. Few people commit murder with the intention of saving other people. While I think Tiller's murderer must be punished by at least going to prison, it would almost be unjust for the society to kill him while rapists, robbers, drug addicts, and others who randomly killed people who got in their way are allowed to live behind bars. He may have to die, but God can spare him, too. I am not going to wish him dead, despite his deserving it. What 'er my God ordains is right.

> (contrary to the pro-abortion people, who are probably opposed to the death penalty),

Right, how ironic. They'll probably be tempted to make a special exception in this case, to make an example of him -- stick his head on a spike down at the health clinic as a deterrent to anyone contemplating violence there.

[Michael McMillan]

Well-stated comments by many on a difficult issue.

In all this, I can't help thinking of Jael, who took it upon herself as a private citizen to murder Sisera in his sleep after luring him into her tent with lying words ensuring him of his safety.

This evil woman who took the law into her own hands should have been executed for her cold-blooded murder, right?

Then why is Deborah, the patron saint of the egalitarians, singing with Barak:

"Most blessed of women is Jael,
The wife of Heber the Kenite;
Most blessed is she of women in the tent."

The song goes on at length in detail about the murder, even talking about Sisera's anxious mother looking out the window and wondering why he was so late coming home from work!

Deborah ends her song about Jael's bloody deed:

"Thus let all Your enemies perish, O LORD;
But let those who love Him be like the rising of the sun in its might."

Yikes -- what's this? One of the most prominent women in the Bible singing exultantly about the murderous deeds of another woman!

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. But if this happened today, Deborah and Jael would be denounced by Christians as promoting terrorism and hurting God's cause.

While trying to sort out one evil from another --and I sure don't claim to know how to begin to-- it is worth remembering that God isn't the nice, harmless, agreeable and lenient Being so many in the modern church would like to make Him out to be. For example, He is not required to respect human laws allowing child sacrifice until they can be "legally" changed 50 years from now, if ever. Though we are to some degree limited in our available actions, He is not so bound.

[No, I am not saying we should use Jael as a role model, nor advocating any songs about Tiller and his family. Sowing death and then reaping it is a sad business from start to finish. I am just pointing out something I see in the Bible that contradicts what we would normally tend to think. God doesn't fit nicely in any of our little boxes.]

[Michael McMillan]

> the evil of terrorism does not even come close to the evil of abortion

Scott, I think I understand what you mean, but I certainly wouldn't call Tiller's murder an act of terrorism, if that is what you are saying. As Tim originally said, it was more of an assassination. A surgical strike, if you will. If our society wasn't so morally sick, it could even be considered justifiable homicide.

For example, were the people trying to bump off Hitler to stop his atrocities terrorists or assassins? The latter, of course.

A terrorist would have randomly shot up the church, taken hostages, created mass chaos, that sort of thing. We shouldn't use the rhetoric of the abortionists who already tend to be painted as innocent do-gooders who are the victims of radical lunatic extremists cheered on by religious fundamentalists.

Murdering a man who makes a living killing thousands of human beings is different than terrorizing innocent people, though both are still homicides.

Meanwhile, the government is beefing up protection of doctors and facilities so they can continue their work in safety. [State-sponsored terrorism?] I also heard last night on the evening news that a man is coming down from Nebraska to keep Tiller's business going.

Interesting comment on "effeminization" of law under "justifiable homicide" at Wikipedia:

"Hence, in eighteenth century English law, it was considered a justifiable homicide if a husband killed a man "ravishing" or raping his wife, but modern law treats this as only a circumstance that will mitigate murder to a conviction for manslaughter. In other words, the socialization of modern men (or in Nietzsche's terms, the herd-animalization or effeminization) is supposed to result in less violent responses to provocations."

Also pertinent:

"A non-criminal homicide, usually committed in self-defense or in defense of another, may be called in some cases in the United States. A homicide may be considered justified if it is done to prevent a very serious crime, such as rape, armed robbery, or murder. The assailant's intent to commit a serious crime must be clear at the time. A homicide performed out of vengeance, or retribution for action in the past, would generally not be considered justifiable."

Yes, but what if the person's daily job was killing defenseless humans? Then it isn't retribution or vengeance, but prevention of murder.

[I'm not condoning assassination for Christians or calling this one a hero, in case anyone's reading carelessly and jumping to unfounded conclusions.]

--Michael

[Michael McMillan]

Here is the NOW President's June 1 statement concerning the death of their hero, and the call to hunt down all the anti-abortion domestic terrorists, their criminal organizations, backers, funders, etc. with the full force of the Department of Homeland Security and the Justice Department...

http://www.now.org/press/06-09/06-01.html

~~~

"Women across the country have lost a champion today. The cold-blooded murder of Dr. George Tiller this morning in church is a stark reminder that women's bodies are still a battleground, and health care professionals are on the frontlines.

"This kind man and skilled doctor braved blockades, harassment, assault, and countless threats, including an attempted murder in 1993 when he was shot in both arms. He knew his life was in constant jeopardy, and that he would likely die at the hands of an anti-abortion terrorist -- yet he continued to protect his patients and provide safe and legal abortions to women in often-desperate circumstances. Those who are behind this murder may believe that the killing of George Tiller will mean that these women will have nowhere else to turn, but they are wrong. On the contrary, I believe their depraved acts will inspire another doctor to take up the torch, and another, and another.

"Dr. Tiller's slaying is the most recent in a string of murders in the service of the anti-abortion cause, and hundreds of people have been injured or threatened because they provide legal abortion services. Bringing the killers to justice is not enough - the Justice Department and the Department of Homeland Security must root out and prosecute as domestic terrorists and violent racketeers the criminal enterprise that has organized and funded criminal acts for decades. We call on the new attorney general Eric Holder and head of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano to treat these murders in the same way they would treat politically-motivated domestic terrorism of any other kind and put the full resources of their two departments behind that effort.

"Tomorrow will be a Day of Mourning for Dr. Tiller as well as a National Day of Commitment..."

~~~

"Dr. Tiller's slaying is the most recent in a string of murders" -- I thought the last one was in 1998? More Christians have been killed since then [while in church, even] than abortionists.

--Michael

[Jack K. Philippi]

This was a rather hot cup of tea for the Tiller-man to drink, don't yoou think? It seems to be very much like the episode of King David's son Absalom. The Lord wished to bring calamity on Absalom (II Sam. 17:14), and did so via an unrighteous man (General Joab) and his unrighteous act (II Sam. 18:9-15). May the Lord be merciful to a nation and to a certain branch of Christianity (evangelicals) who have silently stood by and essentially condoned the slaughter of children before their birth.

Jack Flip of Wisco

[Karen]

Just so's you guys know, I'm linking your post on every feminist website I can find, with strong encouragement to comment as often as they can on your blog.

This is from one of Dr. Tiller's patients. I post this on the off-chance that one of your readers might have some tiny fragment of a heart left.

[David Gray]

>This is from one of Dr. Tiller's patients.

One of the lucky ones, Tiller tended to kill at least one out of every two human beings he touched in his practice.

[Kamilla]

Karen,

Oh, we do have hearts. We have hearts for the tiny children ripped apart in their mother's wombs. We have hearts for those mothers who later regret their decision to end the life growing in their wombs. We have hearts for those women who later find out the abortion industry has lied to them about the medico-physical and psychological consequences of terminating a pregnancy by such violent means. We especially have hearts for those moms who listen to those offering help and choose not to abort their babies. We have hearts for the children born to live less than what you might think is an adequate life.

We have big hearts, lots of love and so much joy for moms like Michelle Holmes, her husband Chris and their two girls - you can read about them if you scroll down a few posts. And those of us who've met Bob Kaplowitz can't help but have a big heart for him and that smile of his. You can read about him here if you search for "Bob Kaplowitz".

We have hearts for the joy, the beauty, the character and the love there is to be found in suffering. We "even" have so much heart for feminists like you that we call you to repentence by our participation on this blog.

Kamilla

[Ginger Mahoney]

> This is from one of Dr. Tiller's patients.I post
> this on the off-chance that one of your readers
> might have some tiny fragment of a heart left.

I am not sure what you are getting at with this statement. I assume that you are saying that you are a satisfied customer of Dr. Tiller? I have spoken to and counseled many women who have had abortions and I have not met one woman who admits that she has had an abortion and is happy about that. They all express sorrow and many of them feel that they are wrong to feel that sorrow (after all it wasn't really a baby). Most of the women that I talk to are not Christians-they have no reason to regret their abortions except for the fact that they know deep in their hearts; despite what all of their friends, family and even therapists are telling them, that they are guilty of murdering their own child. This was the same realization that I came to after "choosing" through the evil of abortion to murder my own child. It is the event God used to bring me to Him, because I had no where else to turn upon realizing what I had done. I have prayed that God would soften my heart and allow me to forgive the doctor who performed my abortion. It is God alone who has allowed me to come to the point of forgiveness for him. We do have compassion and would love to share the love and forgiveness of Jesus Christ with you. I would love to have a personal conversation with you and hear your story. You can e-mail me at vmahoney@pyramid.org.

[spluffer]

There sure were a lot of comments before any mention of Tiller's 60,000 co-conspirators. I take it they weren't as culpable?

[JK]

"As surely as the LORD lives, the man who did this deserves to die!"

[Ginger Mahoney]

"spluffer",

I have actually thought a lot about the issue of the culpability of the women who allow the doctor to kill their child. The way I have thought about it is that they are culpable, not only before God, but also in a legal sense possibly. After WWII many people who worked for the Nazi's were tried and convicted. They had broken no law of their own country, but they had committed heinous crimes, many times even receiving a paycheck for those actions. I have come to the conclusion that as for myself, I am culpable of taking another human life, that of my unborn child. If America waking up and realizing that abortion is murder means that I have to pay for my crime legally, then so be it. I would not fight it because I did commit murder and it is right to submit legally to the consequences. I pray that in the future people will look on abortion as we now look on the holocaust against the Jews and wonder how so many people could have participated and how so many people could have stood by and done nothing to stop it.

[Michael McMillan]

Scott Roeder is not elible for the death penalty.

Kansas law has been "feminized" so that only a couple specific forms of murder qualify for the death penalty.

George Tiller should have qualified for two of the seven conditions:

1) During a kidnapping for ransom

*2) During a killing committed under a contract or agreement

3) The killing of any person by someone confined in a state correctional institution, community correction institution or jail or while in official custody

4) A killing during the commission of, or attempt to commit, a rape or aggravated sodomy of any person

5) The killing of a law enforcement officer

*6) The killing of more than one person as part of the same act or in two or more acts connected together

7) The killing of a child under age 14 during a kidnapping or aggravated kidnapping with the intent to commit a sex offense upon the child

[for references, search "Roeder death penalty"]

[Michael McMillan]

[Duh, make that "Roeder is not 'eligible'"]

Ginger, something else about the Holocaust -- many camp guards that have been hunted down for decades to pay for their crimes only did what they did out of fear of their own lives. Yes, they were heartless and committed great evil, but if they had not followed orders, they would have themselves been mercilessly killed. Civilized people expect them to have resisted. But would those who point the righteous finger at them have gladly died with the Jews by refusing to comply with orders?

Contrary to the Holocaust, abortionists are proud of their stand. No one is holding a gun at their heads to kill babies. George Tiller forced no one to work for him. They were all glad to be involved. There is no sense of reluctance, unfortunate necessity, the lesser of two evils, "we wish it weren't so and hope it will be unnecessary some day," or any of that. They are liberating/empowering women, and consider themselves part of a great cause. To read the statements of the feminist leaders makes me shudder.

Woe unto them.

[Ginger Mahoney]

Michael,

Good point about many people only doing what they were forced to do to escape death. Of course I was not necessarily referring to that and was not pointing a righteous finger at anyone other than myself who did what I did not forced at gunpoint and certainly not fearing for my own life. I was merely saying that in a just society woman, such as myself would have to pay for their evil acts, although not illegal acts just as many of the Nazi's have had to do.

[Michael McMillan]

Hey, Ginger, I wasn't thinking of your situation at all, just taking what you said about the Holocaust and leap-frogging a little further out into the pond with it.

~~~~~~

While I'm hopping around... this article is about Tiller's would-be replacement, LeRoy Carhart.

Neb. doctor wants to carry on Tiller's mission
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_the_next_tiller

He knows these late-term pregnancies involve viable children, but is itching to get the Wichita mill cranked back up again. He'd relocate from Nebraska, where there are undesirable viability issues to deal with. But he's worked at Tiller's a few days every month for the last ten years, keeping current in the third-term jobs.

"Nebraska state law is based on viability. Nobody has defined that," he told the AP. "It's much cheaper to go build a new clinic in Kansas than to try to define what viability means in Nebraska."

The two exciting things about the article are:

1) The repeated reference to the serious concern that new doctors are not wanting to be trained in this procedure, and schools are not teaching it. Tiller was 67, Cathcart is 67, and Hern is 70. [I was going to say, "may they be a dying breed," but someone might that that wrong.]

2) Tiller's family said there were no plans to reopen the "clinic," despite Cathcart's overflowing enthusiasm and vow to take Tiller's place.

[Michael McMillan]

> Just so's you guys know, I'm linking your post on every feminist website I can find

Good, Karen, maybe some of them will come to their senses, will stop being exploited and believing the wicked lies.

> This is from one of Dr. Tiller's patients.

"Patient" -- were you sick? [Why do perfectly healthy women get "treated" by such doctors?]

> I post this on the off-chance that one of your readers might have some tiny fragment of a heart left.

Tiny fragments of hearts is a very poor choice of words when talking about George Tiller's gruesome business.

May you find forgiveness in Christ, as we all must.

--Michael

[lewsta]

It will surely be interesting to watch how our Sovereign God uses this complex scenario to bring about HIS purposes. Sure, the assassination of Mr. Tiller was morally and legally wrong. Even so, I personally DO rejoice in the serving of justice upon him for his evil work. Many rejoiced at the death of Hitler, though the significant difference is that he KNEW himself to be despicable and took his own life. Morally and legally wrong, yet it did release the world from his grasp. Many rejoiced to be rid of him.

One thing that strikes me as very conflicting: with all the flaming rhetoric coming from the feminazis, decrying this act (and rightly so) the whiles justifying their hero's murderous deeds, calling for strong government action against the "terrorists" (hmm.. seems this was, as described so well above, a surgical strike, not wanton and widespread destruction of innocents) these radicals are, with almost the same voice, demanding laws that leave professionals no room to refuse to perform the murders of the unborn on "moral or ethical grounds". In other words, they want nothing less than that society, through our government, exact "justice" against those who oppose the murder of the unborn, whilst at the same time insisting that we, all of us, condone and participate in this holocaust. Is there not at least a hint of incongruity in this? To protect the "right" of one man to commit murder on the unborn is one heinous act. To demand another, who abhors such actions, to perform them in spite of his convictions, is even worse. And yet they see it as "right and good". Well, woe upon those who call evil good, and good evil. Now, with our new chief executive on the throne, we are ALL complicit in the murder of the unborn, both within the USA and abroad, thanks to his executive orders. He steals our tax dollars to fund this horror, and we do nothing.

I also find myself wondering whether the leadership of Tiller's "church" find his assassin's actions any less acceptible than those of Tiller. I see rather a difference: the one is gleefully responsible for the deaths of some 60,000 lives, while the other finds himself responsible for only one. Another incongruity, for certain.

[David Gray]

>Many rejoiced at the death of Hitler, though the significant difference is that he KNEW himself to be despicable and took his own life.

Hitler didn't know himself to be despicable, his last testament makes that abundantly clear. But he did not want his enemies to parade him publicly, hence the suicide.

[Mark P]

I don't recall Christ's disciples taking up arms to slaughter the Roman soldiers in charge of crucifixions, etc.

I know our God is vengeance. I know He will put the world to rights, declare His children justified and condemn His (and our) enemies. But I also cannot imagine a Christianity in which hate is a proper animating force.

[Valerie (Kyriosity)]

"I don't recall Christ's disciples taking up arms...."

Peter, sword, ear...ring any bells? ;-)

[Tim Bayly]

>I don't recall Christ's disciples taking up arms to slaughter the Roman soldiers in charge of crucifixions, etc.

But, dear Mark, the proper comparison is not Roman soldiers carry out executions, is it?

Other parallels are much better. The basic question is not whether Jesus and His Apostles were to take up arms in bringing in the Kingdom, rather than the Church militant and her Sacraments, but whether across history Christians have ever been right to bear arms; and more specifically to bear arms in defending the oppressed; and even more specifically, to defend the oppressed when the oppressor is, or acts under the aegis of, the civil magistrate.

That's the point at issue.

And we might begin that discussion with a consideration of the Rwandan genocide, asking what the duty of Christians was as they watched their relatives and neighbors hacking Tutsis to death at the roadblocks and inside church sanctuaries.

Love,

[TAR]

AMEN!

[Kamilla]

Tim,

Thank you for mentioning that - I think it's a good parallel to draw. One of the things I most regret about leaving AMiA is leaving the connection to Rwanda and especially Bp John Rucyahana.

Kamilla