Brothers Bayly

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Thursday, 03 July 2008

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In light of the love thing, I wonder what significance, if any, the King James Version has being that it uses "charity" instead of "love" whenever it appears. Maybe I should call the Bible Answer Man.

"God is love." That's what He told us Himself.

So when we accept or invent an unbiblical understanding of love, we are immediately committing raw idolatry, straight-up disobedience to the first commandment.

Thank God that He is merciful to us, working in us both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.

All we need is love

Because love is a verb having very little to do with feelings (as the motivating factor) and everything to do with the affections (not to be confused with emotions), those being informed by what is good and right and holy and true, acting as the motivating factor for all we do. Love does what is right regardless of how one feels. Turning the other cheek is the perfect example.

So we see in 1Cor 13 and Gal 5 examples of actions proceeding from a Spirit wrought state of being. Love is something done and is an expression of what one is.

Hi Tim,

I am confused by your use of the word "evangelicalism" in your first paragraph. What are the alternatives that the elders you mention would want you to convert to?

The only movements I am familiar with that don't fall under the rubric of "evangelicalism" (which I have always taken to be a very broad term) are Roman Catholicism, mainline (liberal) Protestantism, and perhaps those varieties of - as you put it - old-school-presbyterianism (which is non-evangelical in the sense that they are stodgy, doctrinaire conservatives, but particularly disinterested in evangelism).

Thank you,

Joel

Catherine, "charity" had a different meaning in 1611; at the time, it was the closest thing the translators knew to agape. And as Yoko's song (at least my brother blames it on her) notes, it's awfully hard to describe real love today. What she meant is not agape, I'm guessing.

Good posts today.

Some emphasize that they are "Reformed" and not "Evangelical". That doesn't necessarily equate to the "old-school-presbyterian" movement. I've heard murmurs like this from the FV/covenant-renewal side of presbyterianism, but my hearing might be bad.

There's also Fundamentalism, out of which Evangelicalism came. Obviously it's got it's issues, but if I had to choose between standing with Leith Anderson (head of the National Association of Evangelicals) and Jerry Falwell (God rest his soul), then... dude, I'm with Falwell. But that isn't the choice before me, or Tim.

And then there's the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman church. Those aren't legitimate options, but when I realized that many of the "converts" weren't so much in love with Rome (or EO) as they were fleeing the Protestant trainwreck... well, it makes a lot more sense from that perspective.

There's also Anglicanism, and I don't know how to categorize that. England always defies categories.

Technically there's mainline/liberal Christianity, but that's a joke.

>Jerry Falwell (God rest his soul)...

Dear Keith,

I'm concerned. Are you about to cross the Tiber, or are prayers for the dead part of some esoteric Protestant theological tradition, about which I'm clueless?

Repent, and turn.

Smiling, with love,

Tim Bayly

Lol, good catch. I was trying to find some way to indicate that I was aware that he had already passed on to glory, so some wiseguy wouldn't rib me about standing next to a grave. We don't have any wiseguys around here, so I don't know why I bothered.

Blessings,
Keith

Dear Catherine,

The question of why the KJV uses "charity" on some occasions and "love" on others is slightly complicated. Although "charity" likely did have a meaning somewhat different than we ascribe to it today, this is not the complete answer to the question. Without going into an incredibly detailed explanation, the simple answer is that the translators were instructed to retain the traditional ecclesiastical language whenever possible. At the time there was controversy about whether to use "charity" or "love" to translate the Greek, just as there was debate over whether to use "church" or "congregation" to translate 'ekklesia.' The Puritans pushed for the latter term in both cases, and essentially lost in both cases.

Beyond that, the Latin Vulgate had often used 'caritas' to translate the Greek 'agape,' and so there was ample precedent to keep this in place. Earlier translations such as the Tyndale and the Geneva had tended to use "love" more often (esp. in 1 Cor. 13), but these too had occasionally used "charity." So it ended up that the KJV, with its wonderfully sonorous mix of influences (yes, I'm a fan) sometimes used "charity" in its translation, and sometimes "love."

Of course, "all you need is charity" doesn't quite have the same ring, does it?

Warmly,

Josh Congrove

Dear Tim,

Certainly "love" would never have been my answer to a lawyer asking that question. How unsophisticated and profound! It's an eternally good thing that the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men.

Warmly,

Josh

>I am confused by your use of the word "evangelicalism" in your first paragraph. What are the alternatives that the elders you mention would want you to convert to?

Dear Joel,

They don't want me to convert to anything, but rather not to continue to work for reform in a moribund movement they consider thoroughly confirmed in its error. They would say evangelicalism is not a church and that only the church is worthy of our love and labors.

And I'm almost there, although as you see from this post, hope springs eternal in this human pest.

Love,

Tim Bayly

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