Brothers Bayly

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Saturday, 08 March 2008

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But Phoebe was a deacon in Paul's service. That completely contradicts your argument that female deacons are un-Pauline.

Dear Fran,

As the contestant in Monty Python's "Stake Your Claim" says:

"Ah well, this is where my claim falls to the ground. There's no possible way of answering that argument, I'm afraid. I was only hoping you would not make that particular point, but I can see you're more than a match for me."

David Bayly

P.S. Read the skit in its entirety here: http://www.skepticfiles.org/en001/claim.htm

I don't understand your point. But I got a good chuckle from reading the Monty Python skit.

Dear Fran,

My point is merely that you see Phoebe as holder of a titular office of the church whereas I disagree.

If your assumption about Phoebe is correct, then I'm clearly undone.

But it's not as easy a victory as you may think. For more on the classic understanding of Phoebe as deaconess and the office of deacon see my brother's post here: http://www.baylyblog.com/2008/02/women-deacons-o.html

In Christ,

David

Ok. I understand. Since reading the qualifications of elders and deacons in the NASB (which uses "women" instead of "wives"), I've never understood the argument against women as deacons. But I see that's another argument for another blog post (one you had back in February).

God bless.

Fran,

People on both sides of the deaconess/women deacons issue are aware of Romans 16:2. However, throughout the overwhelming majority of church history, Christians have understood Scripture to teach that office of deacon is open to men only. And in the few cases where women did serve as deacons, they did not serve with the exact measure of authority and function as did male deacons.

So regardless of which side someone embraces, this is but one reason why we must insist on better exegesis than "Phoebe was a deacon" to substantiate the claim that qualified women can and should serve in the office of deacon. It was not in the past, and is not now, a slam dunk passage to support women deacons/deaconesses. It is surprising to me that so many otherwise careful ministers of God's word do little, if anything, more than simply say, "Phoebe was a deacon" to support their position that women should be deacons.

"However, throughout the overwhelming majority of church history, Christians have understood Scripture to teach that office of deacon is open to men only. And in the few cases where women did serve as deacons, they did not serve with the exact measure of authority and function as did male deacons."

I agree in part with the second sentence, but I don't see how the first is supportable at all. We know from Pliny's letter to Trajan in 112 that the Church had deaconesses by that point. Theodoret talks about them. Calvin deals with them (and thinks the NT church "widows" and deacon(esses) were the same thing). Ironically, the early Church had deaconesses partly because a) it was considered inappropriate for men to minister very directly to women, b) they believed women converts should be catechized. There's an interesting collection of source references in Bingham's Antiquities about this.

Travis,

I agree with you. There were some who believed in deaconesses, but I don’t know of any widespread practice where male and female deacons carried the same authority and functioned in the same way. Whatever authoritative aspects deacons had were by in large, reserved for qualified, ordained, male deacons only.

My larger point was that whatever view you take has to be grounded in better exegesis than, “Phoebe was a deacon. Therefore, qualified women can serve as deacons in the same way qualified men can.” Keller – who I think is one of the most gifted preachers out there – even does this in his paper, “Women in Ministry.” Of course, he wasn’t trying to write an exegetical paper, but I still think you’ve got to do a better job supporting a view that men and women alike can serve in the same office (deacon) in the same way, especially when that view is neither supported by Church history nor by the BCO.

This discussion has given me a possible insight into our southern fundamentalist friends - they are perfectly contextualised for and to the southern environment they have come from, therefore explaining why they are so often at cross-purposes with everyone else. This is well-illustrated by their arguments over the KJV, music ... and a complete inability to recognise that they have been shaped by that culture they have come from.

>>I suspect that my brother Tim does not mean to be critical of Redeemer Church and Tim Keller for seeking to accommodate, in general terms, the culture of NYC and Manhattan any more than he wishes the rest of us to criticize him and his church for, for example, worshiping to rock and roll in the specific context of a Big Ten-university village.

First, our music is an eclectic mixture that includes rock and roll, although to call it that doesn't quite do it justice. Let's just say that in some of our worship music we've replaced the pedals of the pipe organ with an electric bass. But having so many classical musicians in our congregation, it's a rare Sunday we don't also have a cappella hymns, and every Sunday some worship is accompanied solely by our grand piano. Following the reformers, we believe worship should be "in the vulgar tongue," and we're working to discipline our roots in upper middle class reformed aesthetics. This particular contextualization has nothing to do with being in a university community; we would do the same in Wheaton or Philadelphia.

Second, let's state the obvious: There are aspects of our university community we ought not accommodate. Take, for instance, the pervasive pride that accompanies higher education. In the same way, there are aspects of the culture of New York City that shouldn't be accommodated, and then defended as contextualization.

Making an equal-opportunity appearance in both communities is the pressure to silence the testimony of God's Word, that Adam was created first, and then Eve, and that this order is God's good gift to us and has, by His decree, consequences throughout life.

Precisely here, neither Church of the Good Shepherd nor Redeemer in Manhattan may silence the Word of God and cover our unfaithfulness under the guise of doing the work of contextualization.

May I encourage our readers to take the time to read my most recent post on father-hunger? Here I try to present a deeper statement of what seems to me to be needed to contextualize the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this matter of sexuality, particularly as we look at the world that surrounds us and see father-hunger everywhere. May God open our eyes to this gaping wound and the Gospel opportunity it presents us. Then, may He give us the grace of boldness so that we will be faithful witnesses to The Father from Whom all fatherhood gets its name.

Mr. Bayly,

I would like to respectfully suggest that there may be a certain misapprehension with regard to the Regulative Principle of Worship. I found this line concerning it very helpful. "[It] is not technically the worship which is being regulated, but the authority of office-bearers in relation to doctrine, worship, government, and discipline." (Rev. Matthew Winzer). My own humble understanding is that, in the context of worship, it governs the authority of church leadership with regard to what practices they impose in the public worship of God. If that is true, when rightly apprehended it should function as a prophylactic against spiritual tyranny. This is why the Confession introduces it, in the stately words of XX.2, "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in anything, contrary to his Word; or beside it, in matters of faith, or worship."

Sorry for the name typo above. I am not Rubwn, but Ruben.

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