Brothers Bayly

« A son of the church glorifying God... | Main | High school wrestling... »

Saturday, 24 February 2007

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451d09d69e200d83528f10b69e2

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference John Wesley: "preaching the faith I do not know"...:

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

David
I too have read Murray's books and have received much blessing from them. My question is, have you received this assurance of the Holy Spirit? I believe it is clearly taught in scripture but this wonderful blessing seems to elude me. Why? Monty

Thank you, this was very helpful.

Hello, I came across this post doing a google search for one of the quotes you have of John Wesley. Just a quick question -- is the first quote actually Wesley himself speaking?

If you go to the works (available via google) and read the bottom of this page: http://books.google.com/books?id=x8cOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA117&dq=john+wesley+%22i+do+not+love+god%22, you'll find that the quote is preceded by Wesley writing "One who had the form of godliness many years, wrote the following reflections - ". OK, is Wesley just speaking about himself in the 3rd person here? I guess that is an option, and perhaps that was common to do. It also seems possible that he is actually quoting someone else at that point.

Dear Aaron:

Sorry for the delay. I had to check out some of my sources and my books and computer are not in the same location. The reference for the quote you mention is wrong. The quote on Wesley's account of his conversion does come from Murray 2003:8-9. But, the quote about which you asked ("My friends affirm ...") is actually found in Murray 2003:49.

The reference in Murray is from Wesley's journal, vol. 2, pages 125-26. Murray is using the edition of "The Journal of Rev. John Wesley," edited in 8 volumes by Nehemiah Curnock (published in London by Robert Culley in 1909).

I haven't been able to check out the primary source yet, so I can't really answer your question. If your hunch is correct, then Murray has made a mistake. However, re-reading this section of Murray, I don't think he has. He is making the case that Wesley, early in his ministry, held to the Moravian view of faith and assurance: If you lack assurance, then you don't have faith.

Later in his life, Wesley changed his views (in a more Puritan direction) and marveled at what he used to believe and teach on the topic. Murray quotes a letter of Wesley to a friend named Melville Horne:

"When fifty years ago my brother Charles and I, in the simplicity of our hearts, told the good people of England, that unless they knew their sins were forgiven, they were under the wrath and curse of God, I marvel, Melville, they did not stone us! The Methodists, I hope, know better now: we preach assurance as we always did, as a common privilege of the children of God; but we do not enforce it, under pain of damnation, denounced on all who enjoy it not."

So if Wesley really is referring to himself (in the quote on page 49 of Murray), it would fit with the way Murray has portrayed his thinking at this stage. And Wesley himself says that he used to believe one way and then slowly changed his views on faith and assurance.

If you are able to come upon the book by Murray, read the entire section on "Understanding Wesley's Thought." It is fascinating.

David,

Thank you for the response / explanation and for taking the time to look this up. I was trying to find information about some of those quotes on-line since I don't physically own any of the volumes mentioned. I'm sometimes amazed at what can be found on-line, though one does have to be careful. I've found some old out of print books digitized by various libraries or google. The quote in that journal entry ends with: "Though I have constantly used all the means of grace for twenty years, I am not a Christian." It was written in Jan. of 1739, so if Wesley would consider himself having used the means of grace since about 1719, I suppose it could fit with him just talking about himself. At any rate, the second quote from a letter he wrote speaks more or less along the same lines so I guess it doesn't change much even if in that first quote he wasn't really referring to himself. It's often difficult to discern the truth of what was going on in the past when you have people with different theologies and sometimes pre-determined conclusions "interpretting" things differently. Wesley seems to be one who was and is considered by people to be everything from an un-converted heretic to one of the most holy saints.

-Aaron

Dear Aaron:

I wouldn't go to either of the two poles you mention.

I think Wesley was wrong in judging himself to be unconverted. One thing I've been trying to show in these posts is that his wrong judgment about his own spiritual state was based on a wrong theology.

Now on the doctrine of faith and assurance, he later came to a better judgment, but I think he still had a ways to go in his understanding of this doctrine.

But in the bigger picture, there are several lessons to be learned. First, according to Murray, Wesley's preaching was much better than his controversial writings. There are even some near contrdictions between what he wrote when engaged in a controversy and what he preached. Murray amply demonstrates this when writing about Wesley's preaching on justification (which was orthodox) and some of his controversial writings on this doctrine (which were at least unclear and at times unorthodox).

A second lesson that I draw from all this is one must be very selective if one wants to learn theology from Wesley. He wasn't a very good guide in this area, even though vast segments of the church do follow his teachings. Wesley's genius lay elsewhere.

Aaron,
I highlighted the site you posted to give further light on Wesley's strange letter to his brother but it only gave this site, Bayly Blog, for a reference. In all of my reading which has been quite extensive- Wesley's writings, early Methodist writings, the Holiness Movement's writings, I have never ran across such a thing as this strange letter. So perhaps you could lead me to the site from which you obtained the additional information on Wesley's letter.
Sincerely,
Jim

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Joe Bayly's books

Top ten reading on sex

Send Tim an e-mail

Wikipedia Affiliate Button

Site Meter