Copyrights and Christian Bible Software

I just purchased a beautifully cared-for set of James Bannerman's The Church of Christ via Alibris. I had to check to make certain it wasn't a later printing than the used bookseller listed (1974, Banner of Truth). I've bought new books from Banner of Truth's warehouse that didn't look as good.

It's a shame that this two-volume set is no longer in print. The last printing I'm aware of was Banner of Truth's 1974 edition. Of course, photocopies of various editions have been sold over the internet--I bought one several years ago--but actual volumes of this classic remain frustratingly elusive.

Which brings me to my primary thought.... Why has no one scanned and OCR'ed this work? For that matter, why has no one scanned and OCR'ed countless other worthy classics? CCEL (Christian Classics Ethereal Library) has done a good job of scanning and serving an eclectic mix of titles, but no Bannerman--and no plans to scan him (or many other worthy titles) appear on their "Wanted List."

I'm afraid part of the reason many Christian works in the public domain haven't been scanned and made publicly available is the balkanization of the Christian Bible software market and the greed of Christian software publishers.

When Adobe came out with Acrobat they chose to distribute the Acrobat reader freely and to charge for PDF-creation software. Not long after that, they went further and opened the PDF format to the public, allowing other software companies to publish and sell PDF-creation software. As a result there now exists a healthy market in PDF creation software and a world of publications in the PDF format.

And by opening its standards and allowing others into the market, Adobe profited greatly. Its PDF creation software remains the standard for PDF production and Adobe continues to expand Acrobat's capabilities: from forms to pre-press production, Acrobat reigns.

Contrast this with Logos Bible Software's work in the Christian market. Logos not only charges for the software necessary to read books published in its format, it also charges for titles. You must buy a collection of electronic titles from Logos when you purchase their software; depending upon the price you pay you receive either a modest collection of Bibles and various other works, or a larger number of scholarly and devotional works.

While it is possible to purchase software to convert an electronic book into a Logos-compatible file, the software costs $100 and explicitly requires that any converted books not be transferred to other Logos software owners. For $240, a program that permits you to convert an electronic book into Logos format and give the converted file to fellow Logos owners is also available. But the license explicitly forbids sale of the converted work and cripples some of its features.

In essence, Logos wants the entire pie. It wants to sell the reader. It wants to sell the converter. It wants to sell the books. And, as you might expect of a Christian software company, many public domain works are sold as copyrighted material. Matthew Henry is sold as copyrighted and costs $34.95 from Logos. Jamieson, Fausett, Brown costs $79.95. The irony is, print versions of many of the works available through Logos can be purchased more cheaply than Logos electronic editions.

I could say more about the kludginess of Logos software. It takes forever to load--even on a blazing computer. Searching requires a graduate degree in Boolean terminology. Original language tools still bamboozle me after nine years of owning the program. And there is still no way to insert Bible verses from Logos into a manuscript you're working on without firing up the entire program.

But in the end, the thing that offends me is the greed of a company refusing to permit users of its software to convert and sell their own personal works--but then turning around and selling public domain texts themselves. Almost the whole CCEL could be converted for use in Logos if Logos would only put the needs of its customers ahead of its desire to profit from every text read on its software. But that wouldn't make Logos money so it's unlikely ever to happen.

For an alternative vision of how Bible software should work to the glory of God, check out the SWORD Project. This open source Bible software is available at no cost--with many public domain books available free as well.

I notice on the SWORD Project's front page news that a German publisher has made its commentary series availabale in the SWORD format. The commentary comes locked, but can be unlocked for a reasonable fee. SWORD makes no money from the sale of the commentary.

I wish SWORD the very best. Now let's get Bannerman's Church of Christ up on the web--along with a great many other deserving works in the public domain. If enough public domain works can be put up in the SWORD format, more and more publishers will put out electronic versions or copyright material for SWORD rather than Logos. And that will benefit us all.

Comments

[Gary]

Dear David,

Thanks for this post. I am also angry with the greed and the copyright restrictions so prevalent in the Christian world. A special license has to be purchased to show a film at your church, another license to print song lyrics in your bulletin and amazingly, permission granted from Bible copyright holders if you desire to reference more than their allotted number of verses from Scripture!

Yesterday I preached a sermon, and taught two separate Bible lessons as you probably did and all of our brothers in the ministry. The thought of copyrighting my teaching and charging people a fee to reference it is unimaginable.

Some would argue that I am paid by my church and the music or book author earns their pay from their work. Fair enough, but I would be willing to bet a dime to a dozen donuts that the Christian music artist makes the pastor's salary over ten times or more. How much do we need?

With our words we say that God is the one who gives us our songs, books, sermons so how do we then say, "But make the royalty check out to me?"

I am less and less willing to refer to the bulk of what is going on in the name of Christ as ministry. It is in the main, business. God keep us from this snare.

[Archie]

Gary,

As a financial planner in the seat of Christian music (Nashville, TN,) I think that it would surprise you how little Christian music artists make. Even those that are full time and big time in some cases make little more than a pastor.

It can be traced back to the greed of the label. As I have been led to understand, in order to sign a record deal with a company, an artist takes a pittance and the record company makes the money. They would say that this is due to the risk that they are taking as most artists flop flat on their face. For every Jars of Clay that is a smash right out of the box, there are many, many that never sell many records outside of their friends and family.

However, the label will sign an artist to contracts with the ability to produce 2,3,4 records. If the first one is a hit, then the artist is under the same financial obligation to make a 2nd, 3rd, 4th record for very little compensation.

The only artists who really rake it in are those who are big hits across many years like the Michael W. Smith, Stephen Curtis Chapman, and Amy Grant. Often times they are solo performers who don't have to split the booty among many band members.

Knowing several of the Jars guys personally, they did not make much money at all on their first smash hit album - or the 2nd, or the 3rd. They spend a LOT of time on the road with or away from their families and are truly doing so because they perceive that they have been called to a ministry. They use their platform to raise funds for clean blood and water in Africa.

http://www.bloodwatermission.org

There is another movement going on in the music community in Nashville that is similar to what David is talking about in his post. There are several artists that are beginning to eschew the record companies all together and do it themselves. There are often entire songs posted on the internet for free with the hope that the album will be purchased. One of my wife and my favorite artists has experimented with this in the past I believe. His name is Andrew Peterson and he is one of the artists in Nashville that I do not know personally, but he has outstanding music. His Christmas album plays continuously at our house from Thanksgiving through New Year's Day.

http://www.andrew-peterson.com

Anyway, I hope that you will not perceive the artists (most of them anyway) as making a killing. There are those that do from time to time. However, the vast majority of them are in the business for other reasons. Many of them love the fame, recognition, and adulation and end up selfish narcissists. However, there are a few who truly do see it as a ministry and are seeking to use their music to bring glory to the One that gifted them.

Problem is the industry is ALL SCREWED UP!

[Jonathan Tillman]

I rise to defend Logos in its costs related to software development. You write as one who has little grasp on the effective costs of software development. The cost of writing good code is enormous and enourmously time consuming. To suggest that Logos is making a killing on its book packages is wrong. To compare it to the larger issue of greedy artists (many charging $3,000 and more for a single appearance in a church) is wrong. It is also wrong to compare the "Sword Project" software to that of Libronix. It is rather like comparing a 1949 Ford to James Bond's Aston Martin. They will both provide transportation but one has MANY more features than the other. The one will provide many serious search and organizational features that a serious student of the scripture will find indispensible.
The market for serious Bible software is limited therefore the related costs of development will be shared by far fewer and are therefore greater per user. The willingness of many who profess the name of Christ to steal the work of another also comes into play. The Bible principle is that the laborer is worthy of his hire. Let the market sort out the value if Logos is charging too much then they will not ultimately survive. If they don't charge enough they will, also, not survive.
The first point of the post was that there are many good works in public domain that are not being converted for use in Bible Software. This will always be true as each student finds material that they consider invaluable for their study that others are hardly moved to read. This hardly constitutes a saleable market that will render all of favorites available when I want them.
I do know that Logos has several high speed scanners at work in several major theological libraries as they underwrite the conversion of as much material as possible for their software enterprise. I hope they are able to convert many favorites for many to use in the years ahead.
I know of no other way to carry an entire theological library in a small pacakge and with it the ability to search and study is unparalleled in human history. I think that serious students are going to be willing to pay the costs related to having a powerful tool.
Having said that I also want to add that I agree with the concept that there is much greed in the Kingdom of God. Many do serve for the receipt of filthy lucre and seemingly no other reason. They do so because there are those who are willing to pay them - if there was no demand there would be no supply. Let each believer be more discerning as to the ultimate value of the product that they sponsor. When we find that which is well done the Biblical principle is that it is worthy of a "double portion." Does a double portion equal greed? Hmm . . . I want to think about that.

[Eric Phillips]

This is a serious question.

What is the advantage of software such as Logos? What can you do with Logos that you can't do with free websites?

[Jim Swindle]

Don't forget the wonderful e-Sword software available free from http://www.e-sword.net. It is copyrighted, but available free to anyone. You can make copies and give them away, but not sell them. I don't at all begrudge the creator of that software whatever donations he receives for his software. It includes dozens of translations, plus commentaries, etc., but few books.

[Tim Bayly]

Jonathan,

My son spent much of this past year writing code so David and I do not fail to "grasp... the effective costs of software development." It's expensive, but nothing even close to the huge profits companies like Logos are making month after month, year after year. Contrary to what you write, the market is huge and the royalties pour in hand over fist.

Since first buying a computer (a MacPlus back in about 1986), I've never purchased a Bible software program. Why not?

Because I use Onl*ne (I had to substitute the asterisk for the 'i' to avoid "World's" spam filters) Bible for the Macintosh, coded by Ken Hamel and sold for the following fee: "This software program is distributed based upon the principle of grace, not greed. Therefore, if you choose to use this program, we ask only that you give away four copies to others sometime in the first month of use." (I quote from memory.)

To this day, Ken has never charged money for his software. And although Logos started out the same way, not charging for their software, they quickly changed and now their copyright policies are some of the most aggressive and restrictive in the Bible software business. And they make a huge bundle of money from it. Huge.

Over the years, I've taken my knocks from Onl*ne Bible for the Mac, but only in one detail: I had to keep running the Classic operating system long after I wanted to because Ken had not yet ported the program into OSX. But I've been a beta tester for the OSX version and it's nearly complete, now. So I look at this delay as a small price to pay for grace rather than greed.

There are a few Bible modules that Onl*ne Bible users have to pay royalties to use, including the NIV and NASB95. But the underlying principle is grace and faith, and Ken assures me he's not been put into the poor house by working this way.

So is Onl*ne Bible for the Mac any good? Yes, it's superb! You can't have the infinite choices of Gramcord's software, but for me that's good. And Gramcord's cost boggles the mind--thousands and thousands of dollars before you even have the basic collection that comes free with Onl*ne Bible for the Mac. Here's the present list, almost all free, with many modules soon to be added:

ASV: 1901 American Standard Version with footnotes [B]
Barnes: Barnes Notes (NT only) [N]
BBE: 1964 Bible in Basic English [B]
BDB: Brown Driver Briggs Gesenius Hebrew Aramaic English Lexicon [H]
Beet: Commentaries on Paul's Epistles by J. A. Beet** [NT]
BLXX: 1851 Brenton's Septuagint with footnotes** [B]
Bunyan: Works by John Bunyan [T]
Calvin: 1540 - 1563 John Calvin's Commentaries++ [N]
Clarke: 1832 Adam Clarke's Commentary** [NTI]
CXRef: Cross-References [R]
Daily: Daily Light on the Daily Path by Jonathan Bagster [TI]
Dby: 1890 J. N. Darby Translation [B]
DRV: 1899 Douay Rheims Version [B]
DRVA: 1899 Douay Rheims Apocrypha [T]
Easton: 1897 Easton's Bible Dictionary [TI]
ED: 1864 Emphatic Diaglott [B]
ENT: Eclectic Bible Notes++ [N]
Family: 1861 Family Bible Notes by Justin Edwards [N]
Geneva: 1599 Geneva Bible Notes [N]
Gill: 1760 John Gill's Expositor (9 volumes unabridged) [NT]
GLT: 1993 Green's Literal Translation** [B]
Henry: 1721 Matthew Henry's Commentary (6 volumes unabridged) [NT]
Hitchcock: 1874 Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary [TI]
HNV: Hebrew Names Version with footnotes [B]
ISBE: 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (4 volumes unabridged) [TI]
JFB: 1871 Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown Commentary [N]
JPS: 1917 Jewish Publication Society Bible with footnotes** [B]
KJ21: 1994 21st Century King James Version [B]
KJV: 1769 King James Version with Strong's numbers & footnotes [B]
KJVA: KJV Apocrypha, Oxford Edition [T]
LO: Living Oracles New Testament [BTI]
M&E: Spurgeon's Morning & Evening: Daily Readings [TI]
Maps: 30 color maps & diagrams** [PTI]
McGarvey: Commentaries by J. W. McGarvey [NT]
MKJV: 1993 Modern King James Version** [B]
MNT: 1924 Montgomery New Testament [B]
NAS95: 1995 New American Standard Bible with Strong's numbers, footnotes, xrefs, and lexicons** [BNRGH] (only on Deluxe CD)
NASB: 1988 New American Standard Bible** (only on Deluxe CD) [B]
Naves: Nave's Topical Bible [TI]
NIV: 1984 New International Version with footnotes** [B] (only on Deluxe CD)
NKJV: 1982 New King James Version with footnotes** [B] (only on Deluxe CD)
NLT: 1996 New Living Translation with footnotes** [B] (only on Deluxe CD)
NRSV: 1989 New Revised Standard Version with footnotes** [B] (only on Deluxe CD)
Phil: 1972 New Testament in Modern English by J.B. Phillips** [B]
PNT: 1889 People's New Testament Commentary [NT]
Poole: 1700 Matthew Poole's Commentary++ [N]
Psalms: 1870 C. H. Spurgeon's Treasury of David [N]
Roth: 1902 Rotherham Emphasized Bible** [B]
RSBD: 1878 Revised Smith's Bible Dictionary [TIP]
RSV: 1973 Revised Standard Version** [B]
RSVA: Revised Standard Version Apocrypha** [T]
RWB: Revised Webster Bible with Strong's numbers [B]
RWP: 1930 A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament** [NT]
Sabbath: 1873 History of the Sabbath and First Day of the Week by J.N. Andrews [T]
Science: Material on Archaeology, Creation, & Evolution** [TP]
Smith: 1868 Smith's Bible Dictionary (4 volumes unabridged, QuickTime required for pictures) [TIP]
Strong: 1890 Strong's Greek and Hebrew Lexicons [GH]
TCNT: 1904 Twentieth Century New Testament [B]
TCR: 1934 Thompson's Chain References [TI]
Temple: 1874 The Temple by Alfred Edersheim [T]
Thayer: Revised Thayer's Greek English Lexicon [G]
Torrey: Torrey's 1897 New Topical Textbook [TI]
TSK: 1836 Treasury of Scripture Knowledge [NRTI]
TTN: 1994 Textual & Translation Notes by Jay Green, Sr.** [N]
WB: 1833 Webster Bible [B]
WEB: World English Bible with footnotes [B]
Wes: 1790 Wesley New Testament** [B]
Wesley: 1767 John Wesley's Notes** [N]
Wey: 1912 Weymouth New Testament [B]
YLT: 1898 Young's Literal Translation [B]
Young: Young's Concise Commentary**++ [N]

What Ken Hamel has done, Logos could have done. But they chose not to. And remember, the market for Bible software in the PC world is much, much larger than the Mac world.

The Bible industry is an industry, whether the Bible under discussion is hard copy or electronic. And anyone who wonders how much money the men and women at Zondervan and Logos make should ask them to give a full accounting to the Christians who pay to use their Bibles. Go ahead--I dare you. And if you get that full accounting released to the church, I'll eat my hat.

And by the way, the support I receive from my church is listed each year when the congregation votes on my terms of call. I believe in full disclosure and can't for the life of me figure out why Zondervan and Logos don't do the same--particularly their executives. Come on guys, you claim the Bible publishing business is actually a ministry, so tell us exactly what your finances are--the whole way to the bottom.

Those who argue that there are costs involved that we can't know have been bamboozled. Of course there are costs involved in bringing products to market--this is true of all products. And of course the worker is worthy of his hire--this has always been true and I think of it regularly since I'm paid through the good will of the people I serve as pastor. And of course there are souls, including Christian souls, who steal software--is this news? There are also Christian businessmen who steal from their customers. Is this news?

Greed is my brother, David's, subject--not theft. And the fact that some businessmen or consumers steal from one another is no excuse for Christian publishing companies, whether hard copy or electronic, using the Word of God as their cash cow.

[Fred Greco]

I don't know the cost of writing code, but I do know that you get what you pay for. Onl*ne Bible does certain things; E-Sword does some, doesn't do others, but does some different things as well. Bibleworks does certain things. So does Logos.

There are things that I cna do quicker, better, faster and with MUCH better integration with Word processing with Logos or Bibleworks than with free programs. One *could* argue that it is a waste of time to download and use free programs when BibleGateway exists. But that would not be right, since BibleGateway (while VERY helpful) has limitations.

PDF files have inherent limitations. That does not make them worthless or unhelpful, but limited. I do not use my Ages PDF of Owen's works as much as either Bibleworks or Logos. I never use my html version (or Windows help version for that matter) of Calvin's Institutes anymore. I use the Logos version. Why? It finds more things, is more nimble (finding closely related words and concepts) and more integrated - I can search on "adoption" and "baptism" in Calvin, the Standards, Hodge, ABrakel, etc all in one search, without having to do countless searches and collate.

Respectfully, David and Tim, I don't think this is greed at all. It is like paying for X1 (rememer your past post?) when the "perfectly acceptable" alternative of built Windows search is available. Why pay? Simply put, it is better.

That is not to say that greed is not rampant in Christian circles. One need only begin with Bible publication, and that would keep one busy until the next millenium. New translations, new updates to translations, new study bibles, left-handed widows' bibles, cowboy bibles, married bibles, yada-yada-yada-ya. Or one could start with Christian knick nacks. Or with audio bibles (that are unbelievably expensive).

But no one *has* to buy souped-up Bible software. One could use an inferior product to save money. I do it *all the time* with things I own. I'm sure you all do as well. After all, you do own an inferior product - a Mac! :)

[Archie]

Fred,

Low blow. Keep 'em up. Mac's are far superior and everyone who has used one knows it if they can see past the marketing machine of Gates.

:)

[David Gadbois]

Bayly Brothers,

Thanks for alerting us all on this matter. I was planning on purchasing Logos' Scholar's Library (silver) this summer, and now I see I will need to think about this a bit more.

The big problem is that Logos has some titles that you can't get anywhere else in any other electronic format - the Hendriksen & Kistemaker commentaries, VanTil's works, etc. The number of titles is simply stunning, especially the newer, non-public domain titles.

But if, as David suggests, the search function is clunky and hard to use, and the software is slow, I'll have to give consideration to the Bibleworks stuff.

[Fred Greco]

Archie,

Sorry. I like to have products that don't cost double, and actually run non-proprietary software. :-)

Cheers,

[Tim Bayly]

Hey Fred, time away from the law has made you rusty. No one's arguing it's greed to spend money on the software. Spend away, dear brother.

As for the superiority of this or that product, my experience has been the opposite of yours. But then again, it may be that the lessons and sermons I give are inferior to those given by Logos and Gramcord users. Or maybe they spend less time preparing.

[Tim Bayly]

Fred, you're long in the tooth. Most Windoze users won't know it, but Mac users will.

[Gary]

Dear Archie,

Thanks for the information, I am certain that many Christian musicians aren't millionaires but here is my main point: What would you think if I as a pastor insisted that I should receive royalties for the thoughts I share in my sermons or Bible studies? Would it be right if I told people who attended my church that if they share the information I taught without my permission they would be breaking the law and taking food out of my children's mouth?

The primary concern most authors and musicians communicate comes from the business end, "These are my thoughts, songs etc. I should be compensated for them." Should pastors do the same? My guess is that many would say, "No", you are God's servants, you shouldn't seek to be compensated at every turn" and they are right. So, if a person's music or book is ministry, they should have the same mind frame.

Quite honestly, I am weary of being told I am stealing and breaking the law if I want to share something with my congregation without paying a licensing fee. If I am making money off of it, that is one thing, doing the work of the kingdom is another.

There is a great need to distinguish between ministry and business. You mentioned the industry, I wonder why so many Christians join themselves to this industry? Why not be sent out by their churches? Poor Keith Green was such a fool, concerts for offerings and free albums if you couldn't afford them, he really lost out. (Steve Camp is doing the same thing by the way and calling other artists to join him).

I did want you to know that I am aware that there are many sincere musicians and authors and that not everyone is out to get rich. If the problem is the industry, then by all means Christians should forsake it and come back to God centered ministry that does not have money at its heart.

[Daniel Foster]

Thought I'd weigh in to represent the view of someone who works at Logos Bible Software.

I think freeware and shareware Bible software is great, and it serves a definite need. I do some photo editing at home, and for years I used the freeware app Irfanview. Now I have a copy of Photoshop because I wanted to do more advanced photo editing and web design. Fact is, I still have Irfanview installed and use it for quick edits, but when I want to dive in and work with layers, filters, masks, etc., I fire up Photoshop. Many users report using freeware and commercial Bible software in a similar fashion.

Here at Logos, we're up front about the fact that we serve a specific segment of the overall market. We're also up front about being a for-profit business.

Our user is the pastor, student, scholar or layperson who engages in serious study of the Bible (typically, five or more hours per week) and has the means to invest in a professional-grade tool. As others have pointed out, free Bible software and commercial Bible software are distinctly different. Most of the books in the Logos collections and available individually are copyrighted books, as opposed to material from the public domain. Copyrighted books require us to pay a royalty to the publisher, which also provides some revenue back to the author. That also means the user gets the benefit of both current and time-tested insights into the Word of God.

The search features and automated tools in Logos Bible Software 3 are unmatched for power and ease of use. To study a passage, just type the reference (e.g., 1 Tim 5.18) and click the Go! button. For original language study, just enter a passage or a word and click Go! I encourage you to check out the video demo at Logos.com showing what the software can do for your Bible study: http://www.logos.com/demo

What's more, Logos invented a sales program whose sole purpose is to digitize public domain books, at the lowest possible price! Known as the Community Pricing Program, it's set up like a reverse auction: as more people bid on a book or collection, the price goes down for all of them. Users who participated have paid between $1 and $10 per book for top-quality, full text digitial editions of classic titles by Farrar, Broadus, Torrey, Deissmann and others. Details at: http://www.logos.com/communitypricing

To set the record straight on a few other points:

* Logos has always been a for-profit business focused on equipping the church with the best tools for Bible study. The profits earned go right back into developing the software and growing the business.

* Libronix Digital Library System (the "reader" software for Logos Bible Software) is now, and has always been, available as a free download from our website. We charge only for books and automation addins.

As the breadwinner in my family of four, I'm grateful that the Logos pricing structure ensures I'll have a job next month, next year. I see the way the company is run from the inside, and I can tell you that a sustainable business model is good not only for the company's employees but also for its customers. Logos is doing more to advance the tools and resources available for Bible study than any other organization in the industry, and I'm proud to play a role in equipping the saints this way.

Daniel Foster
Press Relations
Logos Bible Software

[Robert Perry]

This really echoes, albeit a bit later, a lot of discussions to be had about record companies and their copyright protection efforts, or even in engineering settings when fellow engineers try to put copyrighted material on company networks. As someone who gets paid for ideas, I'm a fan of copyright law and its enforcement--to argue against it is more or less to argue that I shouldn't get paid.

And what's to stop someone from using Adobe products and putting these things together? If it's in the public domain, right?

[Fred Greco]

Not long in the tooth, Tim, just desirous of wanting to be able to do things that my grandmother wouldn't want to do.

The equivalent of a Mac is a governmental program. Bloated and no flexibility at all. Ever try to make iTunes do ANYTHING out of the run-of the mill? Can't be done. Change music directories? Nope, because Apple won't allow it.

Proprietary software. You'd better hope that Open Office keeps pace, or else you'll have no office software soon.

And if anyone really hates Bill Gates and Co., you'd be better off with a Linux box at 1/3 the price of a Mac. But I guess I'm not made of money! :)

[Joe Owens]

I agree with the comments that Logos is slow. The old Logos system was much faster but if I wanted the new titles, I had to update to the new system. Now we are going through the same thing again and I don't believe that Logos System 3 is any faster or better. The truth is I have never been able to set up all the fancy search and link capabilities of Logos. To me it is because of the poor documentation. I have tried for years to follow their instructions for setting things up but with no success. The answer when I emailed or called them was to spend more money traveling to and paying for a seminar on how to use Logos.

If companies are really doing it as a ministry why is it restricted to the English speaking market? Why are the Spanish titles that are available so restricted? Why is the cost for Spanish so expensive in their currency? Why do the pastors need computers that they can not purchase to run the softeware?

[Joseph]

Fred,

You're cracking me up. On Windoze, open iTunes, select Edit->Preferences. Click "Advanced" then "General". Click "Change" next to the line that says "iTunes music folder location". Now select your new music directory. Or for that matter, uncheck "Copy files to iTunes Music Folder when adding to library" and listen to music from as many different folders as you want, scattered all over your HD.

I work with audio files all day long at work, editing them, converting them, adding id3 info, streaming them, selling them, cleaning them, fixing them. Regardless of whether I'm using a mac or a PC at the moment, you can bet that I've got iTunes open. It is by far one of the most mature and usable audio programs that I work in including both free and not so free (read very expensive) programs. I'm constantly evaluating other programs and writing scripts and programs in order to streamline our processes. iTunes saves us real time and real money.

(I might add that if you could see how fast windoze boots on a mac, you'd probably turn green. Not that anyone in their right mind would want to do that of course, but if you had to have a computer that could run every operating system at the same time, faster than blazes, might I recommend a Mac? Try tapping your monitor on the side and see if it switches operating systems. Just the type of beautifully possible and completely useless thing you can do on an Apple laptop because of its Sudden Motion Sensor.)

[Fred Greco]

Joseph,

Glad I made your day! :-)

I can vouch that if you make the mistake of moving the location of your music folder, iTunes will not recognize it, and there is nothing you can do. You can search the support information on the Apple website (now there is something to really make you laugh. I guess Mac users must get some free support hose, because the support for iTunes is the biggest joke I have ever seen in my life), and you will find a couple of dozen threads that all basically end with: "you can't do this. You have to rebuild your entire Library."

Of course you *could* use Apples solution, which is to copy ALL your mp3s into Apple's own proprietary location, which results in double disk space usage, or every other program being subject to iTunes, and basically the entire Windows music structure being thrown out the window, causing every other program to have to be specialized, but hey, Apple knows best, right.

For me, hardware is as simple as oranges, real estate and every other thing that you can buy - the free market proves what works, and what doesn't. It proves what is too expensive and what is not. Mac users are like the liberal economic apparatchics of yesteryear - they tell us what we shoudl like and buy, and then appear offended and shocked when no one listens to them. The fact that Apple has (about) 2% of U.S. marketshare and far less worldwide speaks volumes. All that in spite of the fact that they were first to market (a HUGE advantage as I can testify to with our emerging company) and have had a hammerlock on the educational establishment.

Or maybe Bill Gate just is the AntiChrist and has mind control over millions of IT departments who have to actually report to shareholders for purchasing the best choice of hardware.

Cheers,

[Tim Bayly]

Hey Fred, the man does sound for a living--on both sides of the aisle. He shows your complaint is wrong, but do you back down?

Blogs are forgiving, sessions less so.

[Eric Phillips]

Fred and Joseph seem to be describing divergent views of reality. Do they both have the same software?

[Joseph]

And here I thought you were about to say that we seemed to have diverged from the topic at hand. But as long as that isn't your complaint, on with it!
:)

As for reality. In reality, we are both right. (I hate it when people say that.) It is true that you can change the location of your music folder to whatever you want it to be. It is also true that you cannot easily move your library around, especially from one disk to another. (And especially, especially if you are using Windows, which cannot keep track of a file as it moves from place to place.) If you want to, you will probably have to rebuild your library. Depending on how many tracks you have, it could take a while. Due to limitations in what data can be stored in an ID3 tag, you will lose your ratings of songs and your statistics about how many times you have listened to the songs. As far as I know, that is the only problem with clearing out your library and starting over. For me, that would be a major pain with my private music collection. However, that is not really a limitation that I see as a serious design flaw.

As far as I can tell, the reason the limitation exists is because iTunes allows you to do so much more than your standard mp3 program. (Namely, store much more information about each file than id3 tags allow, and store information about audio and video files that don't even accept id3 tags.) If you want a program without these features, fine. Personally, I like the automatic playlists based on how many times I've listened to a song and what I've rated it, etc. So I can see how a traumatic event with a large carefully manicured library would cause undying hatred.

So what do you use instead, Fred? Winamp?

By the way, I'm sure you are right, iTunes support is probably awful. But remind me again why they should provide free support for a free program?

[Fred Greco]

I agree with most everything Joseph said. The problem manifested itself to me when I partitioned my drive and moved all my mp3s (several GB) to the new partition for storage and backup purposes. I found that I could not even move it back without wiping the library.

iTunes support is aweful, but MS Support is no better. The difference is that there are 50x more PC users, so there are many more options for support by Google.

I really only use iTunes now to update my iPod. For listening off the computer, I use either WinAmp or Windows Media 11. For video I use Nero.

My experience with iTunes may be atypical, or it may be a result of being on a Windows platform. But I find it continually under-performs. It regularly freezes up, and I cannot update podcasts automatically without it crashing. Don't know why - I've uninstalled and reg cleaned 3 times at least. Sigh.

It's not that PC programs always work - what frustrates me is that the catch-all excuse for Apple programs is "you should be running it on a Mac!" I have a problem with a company that poo-poohs problems with their program on 98% of the market. I think it is a typical devotee response, which is not customer driven, but "we are smarter" driven. The same mentality shows up in Firefox users - even though I love the browser. When someone has a problem that they raise in the Firefox support forums, inevitably someone will yell, "but, but, but it's SOOO much better than IE!!"

Well, ok, but what does that mean. Who cares? I'm not on a mission to destroy Bill Gates, I just want my software to work. That's what I get from working in a technology company in the service business. In order to make money, we actually have to respond to people's concerns.

All to say, sorry Joseph that I let my humor (and it was simply a humorous poke at Tim that started this) go beyond that. I did not mean to imply that you don't know exactly what you are doing, and I should have been more restrained.

[Tim Bayly]

Hey Fred, no one's saying anything about Microsoft except you. And if you read back through this blog, you'll find that I don't mind them much at all. In fact, some time back I commended the Gates for their work fighting malaria and it led to a few readers having hissy-fits.

As for PCs, I've never been concerned about people like you liking them and hating Macs. Each to her own. But inaccuracies need to be cleaned up, so I appreciated my son's expertise.

[mounty]

I don't know that I'd call it greed without looking at their bottom line, but I will say that Logos seems overpriced. I've hovered over some shoulders while people were using it, and it looked daunting and prohibitive - this coming from an admitted geek who browses source code for the fun of it. As a programmer, I know they have to charge something to recoup their costs of development, blah blah blah. I mean, I've charged churches for programming work before, because time isn't free, no matter how you cut it. But I don't think I've overcharged.

I daresay any basic function of Logos can be had for free in e-sword (my program of choice). You want super-advanced functions? Pay for Logos, then, but be prepared for super-advanced learning, too.

[Jack's Pipe]

When is someone going to put all the Banner of Truth commentaries in electronic form (preferably web-based)? Those and the Hendricksen commentaries would be just swell.

[Preston Venzant]

Plain and simple saints, the gospel is free. You don't have to buy anything. You can go to church and get the absolute best book ever written and spend the rest of your life reading it and not even crack the surface of the depths of God's wisdom. And what's more amazing is that most churches will give it to you for free. I think it is Libronix' business to charge whatever they want. We don't need it we just want it.

[James Peters]

I see paying for my Logos software as an investment. Every week, I spend time studying and preparing. Before I got Logos, I tried out several other Bible Software packages, and didn't find one that actually saved me time.

Since paying for the Scholar's Gold edition of Logos, I am now able to prepare my sermons in less than half of the time, and often quicker. What used to take 10-12 hours (with textbooks & internet) now takes 4-6 hours at the most.

Just 4 hours a week saved is over 200 hours a year, time that I can spend doing other things.

I thank God for Logos and all the hard work they put in, and I don't resent them making a living from it!

[David Gray]

> What used to take 10-12 hours (with textbooks & internet) now takes 4-6 hours at the most.

Is faster sermon prep better sermon prep? Or even as good?